 |
 |
 |
 |
#721773 - 06/30/08 02:49 PM
Neofate's considering quitting smoking -- Advice welcome :)
|
neofate
GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 1713
Loc: Southern, US
|
I have been smoking for the better part of 15 years now. I smoke about , on average, 15 a day. I am 29 years old. So I feel that if I can quit now, at a relatively young age,.. I can, perhaps, escape the devastating effects it will invariably produce as I age.
So I have a question or two.
In regards to Chantix:
I have heard either positive stories praising it -- or highly negative stories speaking of the horror it produces.
I do believe that it does not isolate JUST the nicotine receptors,.. but most of your pleasure receptors. Thus a degree of depression is chemically induced. I think if one is aware of this fact, that it is a reasonable price to pay if it rids one of 'smoking' .
If I can accept that possible outcome,.. what is the general duration one must use Chantix to fully 'escape' the habit.
A month? Three? more, less?
I am willing to take the negative if in the long run I can be smoke free.
Lastly,..
For those that have quit smoking, and still are smoke free --
What have you noticed dramatically that has changed? I am trying to garner things to help my determination to quit. Positive things.. like your sense of smell comes back ten fold,.. taste is much better -- Your lung capacity and ability to breath is remarkably better. Exercise tolerance is insanely improved. Even things like my vision was at X point, and that seemed to improve. Things that aren't so obvious.
People know to quit because it will likely cause cancer or emphysema (or both) in the long run. Though the dozens and dozens of other effects it has and is doing to the person RIGHT now is often overlooked. Aka: hardening of the arteries prematurely,.. lung capacity issues,.. making their exercise (if they do) much harder than if they quit.. immune system depletion etc etc etc.
Also, does anyone know if the cardiovascular.. arterial hardening from smoking is reversed to ANY degree upon cessation and time smoke free? IE: If someone has developed slight pre-hypertension.. would quitting smoking likely drop their blood pressure a tiny bit in the long run? (I know just after smoking it is increased.. but I mean all day long).
Any other regenerative effects that occur say after a year of smoke free?
Thanks -- These responses could very well save my life =)
_________________________
-/\/eofate
"Efforts and courage are not enough, without purpose and direction."
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
 |
 |
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
#721785 - 06/30/08 03:09 PM
Re: Neofate's considering quitting smoking -- Advice welcome :)
[Re: neofate]
|
DanielWA
Veteran
Registered: 02/27/07
Posts: 552
|
Hi Neo...
I can't answer all your questions, but I maybe able to give you some insight as to my situation.
Firstly, you are correct, that at your age, you will be in much much better shape in your future health, if you quit now.
I am in my late 40's and have smoked off and on for the last 25 years...when I put that in writing, it blows my mind. I did however quit for a 12 yr period when I had my children, and only began again after a move to another state. I was depressed, and unpacking box after box and thought I deserved a reward. Unfortunately, it has been 5 years and my "reward" is much harder to quit, then the last time.
For me, I can feel the benefits of the Chantix almost immediatly. Like one of the other posters, I am not a large woman, and I think the 2 pills is what really threw my under the bus, as far as the feeling of depression the first time. The second time, I took it slow, and did so much better, but did have some unpleasant effects of the feelings of withdrawl. I am going to try again, next week, and know that if this can help me kill this demon, it will be worth it. I have warned my family to give me space! LOL
When I went to the doctor last year to ask for the Chantix, she told me that there is "a line" that after it is crossed, with years much smoking, that although there are still benefits to quitting smoking, you maynot get the same benefits, as if you had quit before crossing it, so to speak...from my smoking history, I am teetering on that line...it is time for me to suck it up, go through all the [censored] that goes with quitting, and as Nike says...JUST DO IT!
From what you have posted, I don't think that you have crossed that line yet Neo, and I hope and pray, that you don't continue to try and reach it...
I am a total hypocrite when it comes to smoking, seeing what it has done to people I love. My husband doesn't smoke, my kids don't smoke and I sneak around the corner of the house in 115 degee heat, to get my fix...even meeting up with a rattle snake one day! LOL
So my friend...I will be boarding the "smoke free train" here very soon, and if and when you decide to do the same, feel free to PM me, and if I can (and hopefully I can) help you and support you, please know I am here to do so.
Remember to take the Chatix slow, and with a full stomach if possible, and if you need to break the pills in half, it is fine to do so...that is what I plan on doing.
Best of luck!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#721792 - 06/30/08 03:25 PM
Re: Neofate's considering quitting smoking -- Advice welcome
[Re: neofate]
|
nephro
GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 8570
Loc: UK, despite the rumours
|
What I fail understand is why people start. Weighing up the bad and good points, well it stinks, causes cancer, emphysema, atherosclerosis, heart disease, halitosis, poisons every organ in the body, is the most common cause of limb amputations, reduces ability to exercise, costs a fortune, is addictive.....
and the good points: er, none.
It is one of the very few drugs on the planet that has absolutely no redeeming qualities. A complete no-brainer.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#721814 - 06/30/08 03:54 PM
Re: Neofate's considering quitting smoking -- Advice welcome
[Re: nephro]
|
wttrsh
Newbie
Registered: 12/03/06
Posts: 43
|
As of TODAY, it has been exactly 1 YEAR since I quit!! Yea!!!
Neo, I did the Chantix for 6 weeks, and I have been smoking on and off for about 10 years. I have 2 kids 5, and 9. When I quit last year, I went through HELL. I had to put my mom in assisted living (at 64), move her stuff into storage, and sell her house ALL BY myself! I am an only child, so I had no help. I NEVER fell off the wagon. I wanted to, believe me, but I was afraid that, that 1 cig would make me start again. So, do I miss it, absolutely! Do I crave it, of course! Does it smell good when someone lights up, HECK YES, but I am DONE with it! I have heard alot of stories as well, but I can tell you that I am the type of person to not have ANY will power, but for some reason, I found it this time! Good luck!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#721818 - 06/30/08 04:02 PM
Re: Neofate's considering quitting smoking -- Advice welcome
[Re: nephro]
|
kserah
GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 10/05/04
Posts: 4928
Loc: In the moment
|
I know why I started--it was the thing to do. I was born in the '50's and everyone around me smoked. My parents did, everyone in the movies did. In those days, it was considered sophisticated. Then again, they have determined that there is a smoking gene and it has been isolated.
When removed from the mice bred for the experiment, the mice that did not have the subunit-b gene (attraction to nicotine) were introduced to nicotine and didn't go back to it--could have cared less. The mice that did have the gene were addicted after trying it just once.
I know that here in America, even into the 80's, I would go to my doctor's office and have a cigarette with him!! It hasn't been until the last 20 years that people have really woken up to the dangers of smoking. What woke them up was the rise in the cost of insurance! The US has known for years how bad smoking was for people, but the tobacco lobbyists paid big bucks to the boys in Washington. When it trickled down to the everyday working man, things started changing.
I know I quit b/c of the respiratory problems, even though I had only been smoking 2 or 3 cigarettes a day for the last several years. It all added up and the problems it caused wasn't worth the pain of going through it all again, especially the steroid withdrawal--worst thing I've ever gone through in my life.
I have to admit, though, that for many people, myself included, the act of smoking is very relaxing and at the same time makes you feel a little high for a moment. If it didn't make one feel good, people wouldn't do it. I envy those that hate it. Although I'll never smoke again, it doesn't mean I won't think about it.
Truly--if the steroid w/d had not been such hell, I might still have a puff or two. But it was that bad. Worse than xanax or hydro. Even my PCP said it was right up there w/heroin w/d. Nope--can't smoke again. The agony is fresh in my mind.
Good luck, Neofate. Take in 5 minutes at a time and you can do it.
_________________________
Thank you, God, for Cheetos and microwaves. Great ideas.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#721819 - 06/30/08 04:04 PM
Re: Neofate's considering quitting smoking -- Advice welcome
[Re: neofate]
|
neofate
GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 1713
Loc: Southern, US
|
Daniel.. Thank you for what you had to offer.
So in your experience did you immediately stop the cigarettes when you started the Chantix?
I was under the impression you keep smoking as long as you want or have the desire to. The Chantix itself will reduce your desire to smoke (in some people completely) but in most enough to make it 'easier' to not pick up.
It is the only reason to TAKE the drug Chantix. If you still have desire to smoke while on it, then it is a waste of time and money 
You speak of withdrawal symptoms.. I imagine while chantix stops the desire.. it cannot stop the withdrawal from nicotine. But I would think the mental part is much harder than the physical -- although the physical is no walk in the park. So addressing the mental with Chantix, is half the battle, so to speak.
Am I off base here?
As for that 'line' -- I agree.. but I don't think it can be defined accurately for everyone. As in.. after X years you are doomed.
I am inclined to think due to our bodies natural operation that much of it regenerates to 'some degree' after cessation of smoking for 1-2 yrs .. Obviously some permanent damage is going to remain,.. you can't get off scott free -- but the earlier you quit , I think the better your chances of returning closer to that of a 'non-smoker' in health.
Some stats I read are after 15yrs of 'not smoking' your likelihood of developing smoking related disease is equal to that of a non-smoker. Though if you quit when you are 60yrs old (after smoking 40+ yrs) -- I think at age 75, it is still very likely you could develop smoke related disease whether it be cancer, cardiovascular, or pulmonary. Thus the proverbial 'line' was definitely crossed.
However, if you are say.. in your 20's or 30's and quit.. When you are 45.. you are likely to be in great health.. or at least have a better chance of such a statistic being true for 'you' due to age.
Same holds true for someone who is 40yrs old and when they are in their 50's being that healthy.. although the 'chances' being a bit less due to the longer duration of smoking and the older we get, sadly, the less regenerative properties we have on a molecular and cellular basis.
With all of that said,.. it is still HIGHLY beneficial to stop smoking at ANY age.. even if you are 85yrs old.. it would likely extend your life considerably, imo.
I am also interested in 'quality of life' improvement NOT smoking has on those who smoked all of their adult life, and have no perspective to what a non-smoker feels.
_________________________
-/\/eofate
"Efforts and courage are not enough, without purpose and direction."
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#721825 - 06/30/08 04:10 PM
Re: Neofate's considering quitting smoking -- Advice welcome
[Re: neofate]
|
neofate
GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 1713
Loc: Southern, US
|
Wttrsh, and Kserah -- Thank you for the encouragement -- I am not starting this battle just yet , but the time has come. I haven't EVER tried to quit. So that can play in my favor or against me. I think 'in' my favor from what I read on addictions. Mentally anyway.
Also that I smoke '15' cigarettes a day on average is a lesser of a habit than most people who have smoked 15years. I also have always smoked the lightest cigarette I could research. For the past 10 years it has been "Camel Ultra Lights". So the amount of nicotine, tar, and so forth per cigarette is considerably lower than say.. if I were smoking Marlboro 'Reds' instead.
Nonetheless, no cigarette is 'good' for you -- but I can argue some will have more aggressive effects than others. I think more damage would have been done had I smoked a cigarette with 4-5times the tar/nicotine and other chemicals all these years.
I've been teased before by other smokers because of my 'girly' 'wuss' cigarettes.. They say if you are gonna smoke do it right! -- I just smile, and have always continued on with my 'minimal' harm style. It is still silly, but as I say .. puts me in a better position than I 'could' be in.
Anyhow,.. keep the responses coming -- Encouragement is great.. I also can't wait to hear personal stories,.. and what positive changes are reported.
Thanks,
_________________________
-/\/eofate
"Efforts and courage are not enough, without purpose and direction."
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#721858 - 06/30/08 05:17 PM
Re: Neofate's considering quitting smoking -- Advice welcome
[Re: neofate]
|
DanielWA
Veteran
Registered: 02/27/07
Posts: 552
|
Neo...
Quickly..you are correct, as with any age, stopping is the best. I think the point that she was trying to make, and it is obvious, that the sooner the better, because something can be reversed to some degree, and of course, some can't.
The withdrawls I was talking about, was to my pain meds...it seemed to me, like the Chantix blocked, not just the pleasure sensor to the cigs, but also to my pain meds working..I found that difficult, personally.
And, as far as feeling the effects of Chantix, I could tell quickly, that I didn't get the desired effect soon after I started. And although you can smoke up to a week (I believe), as you wait for the Chantix to build up into your system, many feel the effects soon after they begin, and quit immediatly. The Chantix gives you the edge, to quit, because it's just not enjoyable, but it is ultimately up to the person and how bad they want it to quit, to put down the cigarettes.
I can also tell you, that the last time I quit for those years, it was heaven...I had wondered why I had even started in the first place. Unfortunately, like a bad ex-boyfriend...once they come around again, you tend to forget the bad experiences with them. 
Gotta run, but I hope that clears some questions up.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#721875 - 06/30/08 05:59 PM
Re: Neofate's considering quitting smoking -- Advice welcome
[Re: DanielWA]
|
wttrsh
Newbie
Registered: 12/03/06
Posts: 43
|
Yes, I was also surprised on how fast the Chantix worked for me. I used to be a "closet" smoker, with 2 young kids around. Then all the drama that transpired last year, I said f- it, and didn't care about smoking around my kids. My 4 year old daughter said one day "Mom, when I grow up, I want to be just like you and smoke too." That set me over the edge. But I still did it. The 1st 5 days of Chantix I felt nothing. I smoked almost 2 packs a day with my stress level. I was a nighttime smoker. I could never get up in the am and light one. But by noon, it was all down hill from then. And after the kids went to bed, I chained smoked and talked on the phone until 4am to friends. By the 6th day, I went ouside, and lit one up. Yuck! I felt sick to my stomach, so I put it out. Then 2 hours later, the same thing. I know it is different for everybody, but I feel that once you do take the plunge, keep thinking that if you try just one, that you'll be right back where you started. That's what has saved me. Keep us informed on your decision and progress. And, know we are all here for you!!! :-) Kelli
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#721905 - 06/30/08 06:48 PM
Re: Neofate's considering quitting smoking -- Advice welcome :)
[Re: kserah]
|
DanielWA
Veteran
Registered: 02/27/07
Posts: 552
|
I know this is Neofate's topic to begin with, but I want to thank all of you for the wonderful advice! My quit date is the 6th...it will be my kids 18th birthdays, and I really want to be around for many more to come! I wish I would have never bought that pack 4 years ago, but it doesn't mean I need to continue buying them  That in it's self is part of the insanity, because they are sooo expensive, but I have never bought a carton of cigarettes...had I done that, it would have meant that I was a "real" smoker...each day, I was telling myself I would quit the next...
It is too hot here now to walk, unless it's very early or very late, but we have a pool, and I can swim instead.
I will heed everyone's advice and tips!
Thanks again!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#721981 - 06/30/08 09:13 PM
Re: Neofate's considering quitting smoking -- Advice welcome :)
[Re: novakitty]
|
neofate
GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 1713
Loc: Southern, US
|
This is everyones topic! I don't hold exclusive rights to information =)
So feel free to take advantage of it.. I just felt the need for the topic, being a little selfish I titled it the way I did.. hehe -- But it is for anyone considering quitting now or in the future.
I appreciate the encouragement from you all.. and Nova , no offense taken,.. I am well aware how smokers 'smell'.. and especially am aware when I AM smoking in public. I am one of the smokers who will walk waaaay away from a group of people so the smoke won't be smelled by them. I think of others when I have to smoke in public, and try to accommodate them as best as I can.
I don't smoke in restaurants -- ie: I don't go to the smoking section as dining and smoke don't mix for non-smokers. I can handle a few hours without a cigarette for the sake of others trying to enjoy a meal.
I have a script for Chantix from my doctor.. he just wrote it after I told him I smoked.. automatically -- I just haven't gotten it filled.
So basically I can expect to take it, and within a week or less cigarettes will taste awful and I just won't enjoy smoking them anymore? Sounds great,.. how long do I continue the Chantix after I stop lighting them up?
Yes I have heard stories of Chantix messing with pain medications and I'm sure it is valid because it isn't isolated to a single type of receptor.. so it blocks others. ie: Mu opioid receptors -- which is the cause of depression and so forth from chantix. Though I can deal with all of that on a temporary basis.. just would like to know a general ballpark figure of 'about how long' this would be.
Also keep reporting the GOOD effects of stopping smoking.. I need more reasons to feel 'good' about quitting. Death is a great motivating factor, but I am really interested in any possible other benefits to my health, brain, body, etc that people have witnessed as a result.
Thanks again!
_________________________
-/\/eofate
"Efforts and courage are not enough, without purpose and direction."
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#722213 - 07/01/08 01:14 PM
Re: Neofate's considering quitting smoking -- Advice welcome :)
[Re: neofate]
|
jehza1
Veteran
Registered: 02/28/08
Posts: 534
Loc: Southwest US
|
I have been smoking for the better part of 15 years now. I smoke about , on average, 15 a day. I am 29 years old. So I feel that if I can quit now, at a relatively young age,.. I can, perhaps, escape the devastating effects it will invariably produce as I age.
So I have a question or two.
In regards to Chantix:
I have heard either positive stories praising it -- or highly negative stories speaking of the horror it produces.
I do believe that it does not isolate JUST the nicotine receptors,.. but most of your pleasure receptors. Thus a degree of depression is chemically induced. I think if one is aware of this fact, that it is a reasonable price to pay if it rids one of 'smoking' .
If I can accept that possible outcome,.. what is the general duration one must use Chantix to fully 'escape' the habit.
A month? Three? more, less?
I am willing to take the negative if in the long run I can be smoke free.
Lastly,..
For those that have quit smoking, and still are smoke free --
What have you noticed dramatically that has changed? I am trying to garner things to help my determination to quit. Positive things.. like your sense of smell comes back ten fold,.. taste is much better -- Your lung capacity and ability to breath is remarkably better. Exercise tolerance is insanely improved. Even things like my vision was at X point, and that seemed to improve. Things that aren't so obvious.
People know to quit because it will likely cause cancer or emphysema (or both) in the long run. Though the dozens and dozens of other effects it has and is doing to the person RIGHT now is often overlooked. Aka: hardening of the arteries prematurely,.. lung capacity issues,.. making their exercise (if they do) much harder than if they quit.. immune system depletion etc etc etc.
Also, does anyone know if the cardiovascular.. arterial hardening from smoking is reversed to ANY degree upon cessation and time smoke free? IE: If someone has developed slight pre-hypertension.. would quitting smoking likely drop their blood pressure a tiny bit in the long run? (I know just after smoking it is increased.. but I mean all day long).
Any other regenerative effects that occur say after a year of smoke free?
Thanks -- These responses could very well save my life =)
Quickly, as dinner party planned for this evening has increased from 3 guests to 6- yes, there is evidence that the damage is somewhat reversible, there are studies that even indicate that people who get regular cardio exercise and smoke (I'm not sure on the number of cigarettes nor how much exercise, but I know that you "work out" so I thought it worth mentioning) have healthier hearts than those who don't smoke and don't exercise. Yes, your blood pressure might potentially decrease, unless it is caused by something else (runs in the family, ect.)Also contingent on stress management, if you use cigarettes to cope with stress.
Bad, bad man ...smoker's get quite a lot of guff these days. I still smoke on occasion, usually one or two and day and then go for days without one. It's the not having to quit that helps me control the amount that I smoke, as when faced with absolutes, I sometimes tend to do said behavior more out of anxiety or a sense of urgency, if that makes sense. Plus, as having kicked various other habits, I feel vindicated in allowing myself a cigarette now and then. I can't stand for my daughter to watch me smoke, hence the reason I think I was able to cut back without Chantix.
My mother's "friend" smoked for about thirty years, used Chantix for six weeks, and has not smoked in over three moths. I'm sure that you are aware of some of the psychological dangers of the "pleasure reducing" drugs used for abstinence, so that is something to be mindful of as well. The first step is trying to stop smoking in your car, in my experience. After that, it seems more manageable somehow. Or you could just get pregnant
Talk to you soon
J
_________________________
The average pencil is seven inches long, with just a half-inch eraser - in case you thought optimism was dead.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
#722226 - 07/01/08 01:35 PM
Re: Neofate's considering quitting smoking -- Advice welcome :)
[Re: jehza1]
|
neofate
GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 1713
Loc: Southern, US
|
Quickly, as dinner party planned for this evening has increased from 3 guests to 6- yes, there is evidence that the damage is somewhat reversible, there are studies that even indicate that people who get regular cardio exercise and smoke (I'm not sure on the number of cigarettes nor how much exercise, but I know that you "work out" so I thought it worth mentioning) have healthier hearts than those who don't smoke and don't exercise. Yes, your blood pressure might potentially decrease, unless it is caused by something else (runs in the family, ect.)Also contingent on stress management, if you use cigarettes to cope with stress.
As of late I have not been working out -- But I intend on working out cardiovascularly and with resistance training as soon as I put down the habit. I would anticipate weight gain from slowed metabolism (slight) and moreso from cravings of food without appetite suppression, etc. So to combat that, exercise is in order. I have seen friends quit smoking and gain 40-50lbs and never lose it. Skinny guys who quit, then are fat people with big belly's. Sigh.
Bad, bad man ...smoker's get quite a lot of guff these days. I still smoke on occasion, usually one or two and day and then go for days without one. It's the not having to quit that helps me control the amount that I smoke, as when faced with absolutes, I sometimes tend to do said behavior more out of anxiety or a sense of urgency, if that makes sense. Plus, as having kicked various other habits, I feel vindicated in allowing myself a cigarette now and then. I can't stand for my daughter to watch me smoke, hence the reason I think I was able to cut back without Chantix.
Smokers do get alot of 'guff' these days. Too much so imho. What one chooses to do with their body is , well, their choice. Second hand smoke should be checked, of course.. but some people carry it too far. Then some smokers are obnoxious about it (rebelling). Goes both ways. Ultimately I think smoking should be made illegal.. (It is unconstitutional.. but so is making growing poppy plants illegal) -- Because smoking has no merit, and only severe detriment to the individual, society, and government. If made illegal it would curb use quit significantly. (Of course that will never happen because of the industry and lobby).
As for smoking with an absolute.. Yes I understand. If I have just 1-2 cigarettes left in a pack and need to go to the store.. I will smoke those 2 cigarettes much faster than if I had a whole pack.. simply because I know I am basically 'out'.
I smoke an average of a one cig every two hours or so. Not that bad compared to most who have smoked 15yrs. Though I can chain smoke 2-3 in 30minutes with company, drinking, etc. On nights that I am out socially.. I might smoke a pack in the evening alone. Though, thankfully, that is less of a common occurrence as I get older.
A friend of mine who gained such weight and quit.. Started back the first time he went out with 'us' and drank socially. The next morning he had no craving for one, but automatically thought he was 'defeated' and bought a pack and has been smoking ever since. So he quit for 6 months, gained a ton of weight.. and now smokes again with the gained weight.
My mother's "friend" smoked for about thirty years, used Chantix for six weeks, and has not smoked in over three moths. I'm sure that you are aware of some of the psychological dangers of the "pleasure reducing" drugs used for abstinence, so that is something to be mindful of as well. The first step is trying to stop smoking in your car, in my experience. After that, it seems more manageable somehow. Or you could just get pregnant Talk to you soon J
Yes I am aware of some of the 'dangers' -- and I think being aware of those facts allows you to 'cope' with it. Which is why I am constantly awaiting answers on how long one stays on the chantix, and other experiential evidence.
As for the pregnancy -- Alot of the benefits it can potentially induce in a woman.. it can totally change a personality for the better due to physiological changes.. I almost would consider a pregnancy for a child to love, and potential 'change'. -- Though fortunately, the men don't have that possibility.
Funny..
_________________________
-/\/eofate
"Efforts and courage are not enough, without purpose and direction."
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
