Long story short for those of you following my taper: I relapsed on xanax.

So what I did was order some 10mg Roche Valium. The half life is amazing. I took it 2 days in a row at 20mg and then 10mg the second day. I did not take any benzo yesterday and woke up this morning and took my vitamins and b-complex (and b-12 methyl lozenges). I also drank my Xtend as usual as I am a weightlifter.

I feel simply amazing and better than I have felt in months today. No withdrawal symptoms yet and my head has no fog and my focus and concentration is unbelievable. I want to personally thank martind and everyone else on this forum for the wonderful suggestions and support you all provide. I think valium is finally going to set me completely free from benzos.

I realize my symptoms are likely to appear again within the next day, sooner, or maybe even later. I will then try to subside them with 5mg of valium and go from there.

I was finally able to do a heart to heart with my SO and I've got support now and the high fives I get from her are enough to keep me from relapsing.

This is merely a self ranting thread and there is no major purpose to it, but I just felt the need to vent what I was thinking.

Fabulous for you!!! Glad to see you feeling much better. Hang in there and soon you'll shake that junk completely

Great, Diazepam is good to taper off of.

Thanks

I think the part that makes me feel the best is that I did not ingest one single benzo yesterday and it's going on nearly 48 hours now.

The thing I like about this forum is that there are people here who are willing to help you find what you need but at the same time are more than willing to support and help you come off of medications; without scrutinizing you.

When you have been on Valium for a while, the withdrawal syndrome may not occur for several days after sudden cessation. This can lead to a false sense of security, though the withdrawal is less intense than that of alprazolam, and you could 'rescue' yourself if you do feel withdrawal symptoms due to the quick onset of diazepam.

It still makes sense to taper with diazepam rather than just stopping it, at least over a couple of weeks.

Congratulations on taking positive steps to be free of benzo addiction :).

Why should we scrutinize you? The majority of people on this forum have medical issues, or we wouldn't be searching for sources of medication. Addiction is a medical issue. I don't view it as anything worse than strep throat, or a broken bone. It's something that has to be taken seriously and probably treated with medication (taper program) but it doesn't make you "bad person". The fact that you're doing something about it says to me that you're a good person, that you're willing to tackle this issue instead of taking the easy way out (drowning yourself in meds).

Concentrate on your life, and let the pills fade into the background. You have the support of your SO, you have this forums support I'm sure, and you're past all the mental fog that Xanax can bring. Soon you'll be taking 5 mg of Valium, and then 2 mg, and then you'll be off. A definite success story. Congrats again :).

Wish I could feel same -

Great its working for you, and I understand the long halflife of diazepam vs xanax could be beneficial when tapering.

But I gave up with IOPs for now cos everyones gettin ripped off, siezed etc. Well where I live heroin is the drug of choice and there has been a huge drop in quality and availability of heroin in the UK and as a result many addicts turn to valium as it give a somewhat similar effect. So I got this guy who sells thousands of D-10 Diazepam, so Im told, and my friends mouse has been having horrible withdrawral symptoms from the Diazepam, lies in bed shaking no energy very very depressed. The mouse concerned has also been addicted to opiate type drugs and believes Diazepam is far harder to come off.

Congrats diem. I have been reading your posts and congrat you on your success thus far! You can do it.

I am trying to understand and please don't slam me if I ask a dumb question. So is is easier to switch over to valium from xanax, to taper off the xanax? I am very curious because I would like to not depend so much on the xanax. Just need some feedback.

Thanks! We are all here for you.

Hi!
I recently had a seizure related to a three week deprivation from long term use of Valium.
I am now on anti-seizure med's, and have had my driver's license suspended for six months.
Please be careful with Valium. It sneeks up on you. Then, if the long half life has to endure for a significant period of time, you could end up like me.......... Ruined.
Just be careful. "Your mind is a terrible thing to waste".

NO! It is IMPERATIVE that you taper off with the same drug you are trying to taper off of. I can't stress this enough. And taper very, very slowly, don't try and do it in a few days or even a couple of weeks. I recommend a month. Trust me on this. And don't introduce another benzo into your system while you are tapering.

Take good care,

dvz

even though both are classified as "benzos" the xanax is much much more potent and has longer lasting effects on the brain chemistry. Valium is more of a large skeletal muscle relaxor. that is how it gets its reduced anxiety effect. Xanax works more with the brain chemistry, so it has different long term effects.

I agree but would go 2-4 months.

Its crazy how many different responses people have for tapering from benzos. Most recommend switching whatever you're on to valium and then tapering down from there while others recommend tapering off of the benzo you're on.

I can see the pros and cons to each scenario. By switching from one benzo to another for taper purposes, it doesn't cover the same spectrum in the brain that the original benzo did and in turn, you can get some nasty withdrawals from the previous benzo. Case in point - my switch from xanax to klonopin. And I wasn't even doing it to taper. Absolute hell for the first few weeks because even though I had benzos going to my brain, my brain specifically screamed for xanax.

On the flipside of the coin, you can taper a lot slower from valium than the other benzos because of the extremely reduced potency of valium. Its a lot easier to taper to 2mg of valium than .125mg or less of xanax. For one, there is an acceptable margin of error with pharmaceuticals. Some drugs have been shown to have as much as 25-30% more OR less of what is actually listed to be in the pill (most common with generics) and so you might think you're taking 2mg of Valium but instead are taking 1.75mg. Not a big deal with Valium but with Xanax, thinking you're taking .125 when you're really taking about .9-.1 is a huge difference.

I agree that you should take it slow; a month is round about the minimum, but trying to do a slow taper with a short-acting drug is very difficult indeed. Taking an extreme case, withdrawing from triazolam using triazolam is not much short of barbaric. The same sort of principle is used with opioids.

The crossover to a long-acting drug is almost always needed, but sometimes has to be done dose-by-dose, and not suddenly. It may take a couple of weeks to gradually replace alprazolam with diazepam or chlordiazepoxide, and this also reduces the chances of the replacement drug being underdosed. Any withdrawal effects can be compensated for during the transfer process.

There's an example of how to gradually replace a short-acting drug with a long-acting drug here:

http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzsched.htm#s1

I'm curious as to why chlordiazepoxide is completely unheard of here in the states... Does it have some severe side effects and was pulled or what? I hear a lot of people compare it to Valium... Especially for withdrawing from benzos.

It is available in the States: it's Librium. I used to get these awful headaches called "ice pick headaches", and the doctor gave me this. Worked like a charm, but made me feel *really* "flat" for want of a better word. Not euphoric, not mellow, just totaly disengaged.

I think that Roche, who firstly introduced Librium, then introduced Valium and gave it more oomph both with their marketing and with the drug's quicker onset of effect. They probably knew that patients would prefer Valium because of this, and realised how much more money they could make.

Like diazepam, chlordiazepoxide's long half-life comes from active metabolites, and may need to be taken regularly to benefit from the long half-life.

It has no specific problem that would explain why it isn't that popular. Perhaps the fact that it still remains the drug of choice for alcohol withdrawal in some countries, means doctors tend to stick to that indication.

It may be worth chatting to your doctor about this option if they are against diazepam.

Librium to me felt alot like Ativan...?? I liked the Ativan better, so I stayed with it for a long time until my doctor prescribed me Xanax... I haven't heard of Librium being much prescribed these days as most of the other benzos... Take Care,

I think Librium is good for people who don't tolerate the four common benzos. It may also have its place in the final weeks of a benzo taper. It has a reputation for being quite mild and not aborting a panic attack or reducing high levels of anxiety.

BTW, the main advantage of valium for tapering is the onset of withdrawal symptoms. If you stop cold turkey (not advisable) it can take 1-3 weeks before you feel any withdrawal symptoms.

Ver happy for you diem. It is not easy to get off of benzos. I have been prescribed clonazepam for about 15 years now. 6mgs. a day.

Good luck. Benzos are one of the hardest meds to quit.

Benzo is not for fun or better feeling. It is made to quit.

I'm kinda afraid to say anything here. I'm new and I don't wanna get jumped all over. First, I want to preface my comments by saying it's only my observations, and I say it realizing almost everyone here has way more experience, and knowledge than I do, about almost every topic on these boards. Ok, so please don't yell at me. I cry easy!

I have seen Librium used for alcohol withdrawl, not long term, maybe a week, not longer than two, and on a tapering schedule. It is also in an irritable bowel preparation that I have a hard time remembering the name of without looking it up (perhaps Librax?)

For benzo withdrawal I have seen phenobarbital used. The way I saw it used was that it was begun when shakes/tremors began, which could vary, because as has been pointed out, the w/d from different benzos varies, I THINK around 50mg (not sure) and then tapered. Probably given every 4-6 hours for the first 24, and then tapered as tolerated, but during the taper, if the shakes seemed bad, the taper would plateau.

Now I have a question. Since Valium is slower acting, and w/d symptoms are more delayed, would people consider it less likely to become addictive, than say Xanax? Or maybe it just sneaks up on you more easily. Just wondering what the more experience/knowlegeable opinions are about this. Thanks!

I hope I didn't butt in where I shouldn't have. Admin, you can delete my post if you think I was outta line.

Its just as addictive and harder to withdraw from because val is longer acting. Its actually got a longer half-life, not longer acting. it stays in the body chemistry longer. easily detected for weeks, even months later.
xanax is a different chemical that causes seizures if stopped abruptly. I have seen the consequences of this. stopping and waiting a day or two, three and nothing happens,. then suddenly bam! you;re on the floor swallowing your tongue.
Not everyone has this but its very common with xanax.
Thats why Phenobarb is used to treat benzo WD. Phenobarb is an anti-cconvulsant med thats been used to treat seizure disorders for many years and its a little sedating as well.
best advice, don;t start with the benzos. a seizure with other unknown health issues can be VERY dangerous.if you or someone is already trapped on benzos, consult your Dr as to how to get off safely and tell them of ALL the health issues.

Thanks eluded. I am quite aware of, and agree with you completely about the Xanax seizures. But when you say that Valium is harder to get off of, because the of w/d sneaking up on you days later, etc. I am worried for the above poster who is using Valium to get off of Xanax. He may have just put his withdrawl symptoms on hold, and may get hit when he doesn't expect it? Anyone worried about that for him? Got any advice to help him?

It's different if you're in a controlled environment with medical care close at hand if needed, but swallowing your tongue while driving, or watching TV at home, could be more than risky.

I hope someone more knowledgeable than myself here can offer some pearls of wisdom. I'm scared for him.

Diazepam is much easier to withdraw from than alprazolam, lorazepam or oxazepam. This is because, although the parent drug has a fairly usual half-life, the metabolites build up such that they become clinically significant, and quite useful. This means that you can taper off the drug much more easily, since dose reductions don't have an immediate effect.

It's not like you suddenly get hit with withdrawal symptoms after a few days; the withdrawal is less severe and less sudden than with the shorter-acting drugs.

Because it is produced in 10mg, 5mg and 2mg tablets, it is easier to come off it slowly, and the 2mg tablets are especially useful in this regard.

In addition, the highest dose unit (10mg) is a lot more sensible than the highest dose units of alprazolam (2mg, which is stupid), lorazepam (2.5mg, which is stupid) and clonazepam (2mg, which is stupid unless you're using it for epilepsy in the long-term). Therefore, doctors who have no clue will prescribe you 10mg diazepam maximum per dose, thinking it must be similar to the top dose of alprazolam.

2mg alprazolam is considered to be roughly equivalent to 40mg diazepam, and doctors who prescribe 2mg alprazolam per dose are causing terrible suffering for patients when they try to reduce. It is a nonsense product, and the manufacturer knows it. But if patients can't get off it, it's more money for them. Perhaps doctors also prescribe it for greed in this respect, if repeated appointments are used, in addition to being clueless.

Diazepam is actually rapid-acting, which makes it just as useful as alprazolam when intended to treat panic. It's the drugs that "switch off" rapidly, such as alprazolam, that are quite evil and brutal to withdraw from, not to mention life-threatening if suddenly stopped.

That's reassuring. This board is a wealth of information.

So, I have another question. Can you keep from developing a tolerance to a specific benzo, by alternatiing the benzo you are taking, ie, switch from alprazolam to diazepam? I realize tolerance is different than addiction, I am asking about tolerance, in an effort to keep the effective dose lower, since once people develop a tolerance, many will start to increase their dosage due to their increased tolerance, making addiction more likely, and ultimately getting off them even more difficult.

No. If you develop tolerance to one benzodiazepine, you develop tolerance to them all. There is no merit in rotating them. Whether there is any incomplete cross-tolerance I'm not sure, but if there is, it's likely to be too minimal to consider.

There is no way to prevent tolerance to benzodiazepines apart from having time off from them, or taking them on an irregular basis, such as twice per week, for example.

Some people will tell you that they have taken the same dose for years and so on; such people are extremely lucky, and are exceptions to the Rules, as occurs in medicine.

For hypnotics, you could try replacing doses with a sedating antihistamine, for example, which would help.

I have heard pheno works very well in tapering from benzos...................But one must proceed w/ caution!

i've heard that Soma helps as well, but i have no concrete proof or testimonials. anyone?