I'm pretty sure this questions / answer is somewhere on this board but I didn't see it. Here is the issue. I went and filled my hydro script (10/325) the other day at a local pharmacy. Nothing unusual except, this time they were white (M367). I normally get yellow Watsons. Now normally I would say for the most part a generic is just as good as the name brand. But I must say these little white ones don’t seem to be nearly as effective. Has anyone else noticed this? Or is it just me. I read somewhere that the Watsons are better so maybe that’s why I’m convinced these white ones are not as good.

I have have noticed a huge difference in the yellow vs. generic, you're not the only one...

there are more than a few threads on this type of subject. the general consenus is that people have better experiences with the watsons.

It's amazing how different the same medicine can be. Ask the pharmacist first next time to make sure you get the brand you want.

I never noticed it with vicoden, but there seems to be a world of difference when it comes to percocets. The White long ones are almost like taking nothing. Watsons worked fine, endocets and percocets (name brand) were fine. I know that endocet and percocets are made by the same people so I assume that's why they both work great on me.

As for the white ones? It's like the filler was packed so tight no medicine could escape - lol! I had stomach aches, increased pain, etc. I did find that if I broke them in half and then took the two halves together that it seemed to work better. (they aren't time released so it doesn't matter if you break them in half anyway) I've read, but don't know if it's true, that drinking coffee, another hot drink or a carbonated drink will help the medicine dissolve so that it'll help relieve the pain.

Lynx4, I never thought about doing something like that. It makes sense to me. Breaking it in half would be able to let you get to the med itself instead of the coating that they put over it. Sometimes I do drink something hot with them, but when I can't, I make sure that I am drinking plenty of fluid to try to get it dissolved.

Thanks for the responses. The general conscious (once again) seems to be that name brand is better. However, no one seems to really know why. The one theory I can think of is that the generic might use close to the minimum amount of the active ingredient that is allowed by the FDA. This might apply to other generics as well since they all have some type of +/- tolerance for everything that goes into making a single pill.

I worked for ACORN (b4 they were crooked, if they are) and helped to get the generic drug law passed in Texas (early 80s).

It was my understanding that the active ingredients had to be the same and and of the same amount.

I am thinking it might have something to do w/the fillers as others have suggested.

This is like the old calcium carbonate in hydrochloric acid experiment that we all did (or should have done) at school.

The large chunks give off the odd bubble of gas very slowly; the medium size chunks bubble quicker; the small chippings quicker again, and the powder fizzes.

This is because the smaller size chunks have more surface area exposed to the acid. The same will be true of tablets; the more surface area, the quicker they will disperse in the stomach.

I have always thought that the slower a tablet takes to disperse (and therefore the longer it takes for the active ingredient to enter the bloodstream) the less potent it will feel. If the tablet is crumbly in the first place, it should work quicker, whereas a very hard tablet will take longer, and in a extreme case may never actually reach the peak effect of the crumbly tablet.

Following abdominal surgery, I was given Tylex capsules, containing codeine 30mg and paracetamol 500mg in powder form. On an empty stomach, when the gelatin shell melted, the effect was almost as sudden as an IV injection or morphine or pethidine, and was so reliable that it took around 33 minutes or so before the effect would kick in.

I have also taken exactly the same formula (co-codamol 30/500mg) in tablet form, and it felt weaker, even though it provided the same content as the capsule.

I had the same experience with soluble Solpadol tablets (codeine 30mg/paracetamol 500mg). They seemed to work much faster and were more effective than the regular tablets.

Have any of you hydro 10/660's? They really make my whole body itch. My doc was supposed to call in 10/325 on fri but I guess the nurse got it wrong or they were out or something. I will call her tomorrow but Im just curious because I have never had this combo nation of strengths before. Thank you Yota

If I'm not mistaken, the opiate is what makes you itch. So it would make no difference if you got the 10/325 because they would still have the same amount of opiate in it.

I have been having a horrible experience with some generic vicodin I get from my doc. I realized it after I went to another pharmacy for a few months and moved back. After three months of these junk vicodins, I plan on asking for name brand next time.

I know the hydro ca make you itch bu tI have been on them for a long time and don't itch. Now literaly my whole body itches. One little itch then another then another etc. Ugg

Thanks though, Yota

try a lower dose. I've never heard of anyone itching off of 10mg of hydrocodone.

that's funny, I felt like the Norco was stronger than the Watson. Is Norgo considered generic? They're yellow, too.

in America all generics have to have the same amount of active ingredient, the only thing I can think of that'd make a different brand feel any different is maybe the filler.

and yes, I'm pretty sure Norco is generic for Vicodin 10/325.

Vicodin 5/500
Vicodin ES 7.5/750
Vicodin HP 10/660

Norco is not generic for anything.
Norco is name brand 10mg hydrocodone/325mg APAP.
No such drug as Vicodin 10/325.

I love Norco, it works faster then any other I have tried. Perhaps generic hydros use a coating that takes longer to break down. Norco may have a faster disolving coating.

After being on generic hydros, I asked my doc for name brand with less apap. Norco is what he prescribed. My script is $50.00 with insurance but it is worth it, after all why pay $15.00 for something that only 1/2 works.

Thank you

Norco is Watson.

Norco, Vicodin (etc.) are all brand names for products containing varying amounts of hydrocodone and APAP, as Martind pointed out.

Yota. When I first was prescribed hydro they made me itch as well. I mentioned it to my doctor and he said it is the codeine in the drug that causes the itching. Now 3 years later they no longer make me itch which I would say happened about 1/2 year into it. Don't know why eventually the itch factor quit for me but thank god it did!

my bad, I've always just referred to any pill with hydrocodone and apap as vicodin, would is wrong. most people know what you're talking about right away. but my bad, I wasn't aware of the exact dosages of apap in the vicodin.

Not your bad. I hang around a lot of medical people. I think most, if not all, say "vicodin" whenever they talk about hydro regardless of type or strength.

On this issue of different efficacies of percs, I have never experienced that and I have had all the major brands, I think endo, mallikrodt, watson, and I think one other. I definately can vouch for the watsons and the long endo yellow ones, but the mallies are still ok.

A generic name, which is the active ingredient of the medicine. And a brand name, which is the trade name the manufacturer gives to the medicine.

How does this affect?
When a doctor is writing a prescription, or a consumer is buying an over-the-counter medicine, they may have a choice between a branded medicine and the generic version of that medicine. Generic medicines are sometimes cheaper than brand-name medicines, but the active ingredient (the ingredient that produces the therapeutic effect of the medicine) is the same in both.

I could say the white one you have bought is a fake.

yes but with what I believe has been called the 20% rule, they can have a dose that is within 20% of what the branded one is, so possibly less active ingredient. Also the fillers and coating, and other aspects of the pill itself are important. As such sometimes a person can notice a difference between two generic pills of the same medicine. Also, generics are not available for medicines that have only come out recently, some 10 years, others 2 year patents. All i was saying was that I have never seen a difference between generics and brands of percs and for that matter any other drug, but that may just be me.

Why would you say it is fake?

It is a mallikrodt generic pill. It's pretty much been known by many for a long time that the mallikrodt hydro products just do not seem to work as well at all.

Really? Wow, assuming that is true, 20% is a lot! I would also think that most generic companies would put as less of the active ingredient as legal to save money.

Of course, in some meds, like BP meds, one would probably not even notice 20% less.

Not to get too OT here, but I have also heard many folks complain about the effectiveness of generic A/Ds.

I still have a bunch of mali's 10/325 that i'm saving for a rainy day. This was the last batch from an RX from my PCP in May just before I weaned myself off about 30 to 40 mg a day. I have had both the Watson and the Mali's in my med.inventory at the same. I can tell you that the onset of a Watson seems much faster to me than that of the Mali. So what ive done is let the Mali melt in my mouth for a minute or so before washing it down with a carbonated beverage. It doesnt help with the strength of the pill, but it seems to help speed up the medicine's entry into the bloodstream.

The mali's have a very hard outer coating, hard to break in half, unlike the watson's where they are a much more brittle pill. This could be why the Mali's take so long to have any affect, or maybe they did that on purpose to provide an extended release affect. I know they are not advertised as extended release, but the hardness of the pill could be contributing to the immediate effectiveness of it, or lack there of. Any in case, it melts in your mouth and not in your hands.

Worked with a plant that was a contract plant for a pharma company, back a while ago, and was in discussions with some of the chemists. The fillers can make a big difference in how well (or not) the active drug is dispersed and dissolved in your body. Both in terms of how quickly the active drug is able to be absorbed and how effectively.

And there was some discussion of cutting costs in the filler, so I could envision a scenario in which lower cost fillers might be used to cheapen a generic, and that had an impact on the absorption of the drug into your system.

I sometimes bite my pills in half when I don't feel the need to take a whole pill.
I actually broke my tooth on a Mallie.

Ouch! I hope the Dentist gave you pain medication

In all seriousness, those tabs are so darn hard, its not surprising something like this would happen.

all pharmacy's have very cheap pill splitters. or you could just use a razorblade maybe even just a kitchen knife.

the cheap pill splitters I bought at Walmart break very easily - now I use my dogs toenail clippers to split pills they're perfect!

Oh, I still bite my pills in half, but now they are Watson.

I have a pill splitter. But the blade dulls almost immediately, and I am too lazy to keep replacing the blade.

I love the idea of dog toenail clippers! Great idea! Although, I hope you sterilize them for about an hour first. Dogs step in some seriously nasty stuff.

Careful not to let the 2 halves go flying away into the air.

Stuff like that always happens to me. Last month, I only had a few hydro left and I dropped one down the sink. Desperate me, took apart my drain, only to see that it had already melted. And of course, I was not able to put my sink pipes back together myself.

For the record, it is a lot easier to take apart sink pipes than to put them back together.

haha, I did the same thing with a quarter of a xanax bar I got from startmeds way back in the day. it was my last xanax too. although, since it was such a tiny piece, and small amount (0.5mg) I didn't take the sink apart because I knew it would've been gone before I got there. not to mention all the hair and toothpaste and [censored]] that gets stuck in the U trap or whatever its called.

My bathroom was newly remodeled so I figured it would not be to gross. And trust me, it was gross enough.

Found a penny though.

heads up? its good luck until midnight if its heads up. haha

Would anyone have an idea of what exactly the "filler" for typical meds are made of? The reason I ask is because that's the only thing I can conclude is the difference between generic and name brand for any meds.

I would say its mostly talc.


I know there are sites out there that will tell you everything there is in a specific type of pill. not sure exactly what it is now. but if you could find it, you could compare the two from there.

Common fillers include calcium phosphate, various sugar type chemicals (lactose, sucrose) - basically starches and sugars and cellulosics.

After further reading I suspect that the fillers also include the substances that aid in releasing and controlling the active ingredients. This might explain why "some" Dr's state that a script not allow for a generic. I think I will go with this hypothesis.

that would be true in controlled release tablets.

If you're on APAP overload that will make you itch too. You need to have your Dr do some lab work.

I've never heard this. anything to back this up?

APAP is metabolized through the liver. An early sign of liver dysfunction is itching.

really? that is actually a new thought to me.
I have always had a slight itchy reaction to forms of codeine, from Tylenol 3 to Hydros,
but I dont feel it when I take just tylenol/ibuprofen -and I used to take alot.

A member once told me the itching from forms of codiene was not a sign of anything dangerous unless
it was so bad you couldnt stand it, then it is likely a true allergy to the codiene.

Am I wrong?

Could be the codeine but I'm not a medical doctor.

Itching is a symptom of liver issues, but narcotic meds also have a side effect of itching. Probably one of the most common side effects of narcotic meds.

Codeine causes me more itching than any of the other ones do. Also some have phenergan with them (demerol and phenergan) and if you get a shot of one at the hospital or ER, they will give you phenergan with it.

While phenergan is given for nausea, it is an antihistamine and will stop or slow down the itching when you are given it with the stronger meds so a person might not notice any itching with "hospital" meds or demerol.

Generally demerol at home is given as meperidine, which has phenergan in it, so if you take that you wouldn't itch.

Codeine always made me itch like crazy! It made me want to scratch my hands off sometimes, they'd get so red and puffed up after taking it. It is a pretty common reaction to many opioids, I gather, along with that other unwelcome visitor, constipation. I don't get it at all with Temgesic, thank goodness.

yeah, I can take high doses of pain meds, but even a regular dose of codeine makes my entire back itch and almost break out in like hives, but their gone within an hour or two. its weird, I do not like codeine.

I see a lot of quotes from people about side effects of hydro being "itching and peppiness" but these don't seem to be listed on fact sheets.

thats probably because those side effects only come about when taking more than that person should, or more than that person may need.

those are, however, real side effects, if you're saying that you're not sure if its true or not.

You don't necessarily get those side effects just because you're taking more than you should. It could just be your body chemistry, other medication influences, etc. A blanket statement like that isn't necessarily true.

The itching without a rash is more than likely just a side affect from the histamine reaction that occurs in narcotics. The higher dose of narcotics taken the more histamine reaction occurs. Which means the more itching that can occur. Liver disease itchiness quite often has a brownish discolored area or rash on the skin but in the beginning it might just be itchy. The thing to remember is if it is related to the narcotics and histamine reaction it will occur when taking the medication. If it is liver disease it will happen even when not taking the medication.

The first time I was ever prescribed hydro I was itching,my nose really itchy.I asked my Dr and he said that was normal side effects.Never gave it anymore thought.

sorry, I didn't take into account the other medication interactions.

but the body chemistry part fits on what I was saying about taking more than you should. if 10mg is making one person itch, and not the other, then chances are the person itching should only take 5mg or something like that because that persons body hasn't built up enough tolerance to handle that much at a time.

am I misunderstanding what you mean by body chemistry?

You can always take some benadryl with the narcotic to help with the itchiness but then its another pill you have to take which has to be metabolized in the liver. So more stress on the liver. Quite often when narcotics are given via shot there is a some vistaril given. The vistaril is given to prevent nausea and the itchiness. I have noticed that vistaril is not used as much any more and it could be just the fact that in the ER we don't give as many shots. We usually just start IV's so we can titrate the dose of medication given. BTW vistaril is a antihistamine just like benadryl but it effects the central nervous system and has been found to be helpful with other things like nausea/vomiting and anxiety. Vistaril is by presciption only in US.

Vistaril is actually still used quite common, I have probably 10 full bottles of it arounding, and get prescribed it with several repeats for my severe eczema.

pnf~ Benadryl and narcotics = nap time for me! LOL!

DeeRock~ That's not exactly what I mean. Some of us (like me) react oddly to medications. I don't know why. But as far as side effects go, just because you have one (as long is it's not serious) doesn't necessarily mean you're on too high a dose.

But back to hydro, I'm trying a new strength I never had before. So I'll be able to have a comparison of 3 strengths.

I did not the vistaril is not used that often in the prescription world. What I was referring to was in the ER it is not used as much because vistaril can not be given IV which most meds are given IV in the ER(I am referring to the med west USA where I work). I suppose in the clinic setting and in small hospitals where they still use IM(shots) it is use quite often there to. I think they give vistaril out as a prescription because of all of its uses. I think it is given to chronic pain people as part of there treatment at least in the beginning to try to avoid getting to the stronger meds for pain and anxiety.

Sorry, I'm a little late to this conversation.
I have never heard of itching being a side effect of APAP dosing.
However, if it's bothersome, it is always good to see your doctor to see if there is another possible cause.

Yes, exactly, you got it spot on. I find it the MOST effective anti histamine on the market, but it is very sedating at the same time.
Off topic, and I apologize, but if you know anyone who sells Hydroxyzine Pamoete, which is NOT available in Canada, but is in the US, please pm me and let me know, this stuff seems to work better then the hydrochloride and come in capsules vs liquid gelcaps so I can take smaller doses if necessary.
Btw, did anyone get a response from xavier on new meds?

I'm referring to the itching caused by APAP over load in your liver. And it doesn't have to be constant. Annoying yes, constant no. At least not initially.

I think what you're trying to say, and this has already been said but I feel the need to reiterate. liver failure, or whatever word was used, causes itching. liver failure can happen because of apap overload, but apap overload wouldn't be the reason behind itching.

does this make sense?

No not always....

Some narcotics just do that to people even as adults. It happens a lot as a child, but people usually grow out of it.

If I have to take one Lortab 10 before bed, I have to take phenergan with it, it will keep me awake. Even the strong IV meds I've had for kidney stones, without phenergan or something to sleep, I'm wide awake.

When they gave me dilaudid for a kidney stone I was awake for hours and they finally gave m something to sleep.

My granddaddy was the same way and a few of my cousins are too. Sometimes a doc will give you a cough med for day and one for night. I have to switch them up or I will be up all night.

Even Tussionex can keep me awake, the antihistamine in it is not enough to put me to sleep unless I've just had no sleep.

I can take one T3 and my entire body itches to the point I want to scratch it until it bleeds.

I don't have the itching issue with other pain meds, just that one. I know my mom itches with all of them and she NEVER takes more than the regular dose.

Codeine can cause extream itching.

should have read further...

Even if I take just one 5 mg Lortab, I'm awake to the point I can't lay down and sleep at all. I do have a very, very high metabolism, so did my grandfather. Don't know if that has anything to do with it or not.

i had the same problem with lortab, the itch. I usually just took some benadryl 1 time for the day.
worked great

Whew, thanks for explaining it for me. It's hectic around here!

Let's try it with a somewhat different twist.
One of the many causes of liver disease is APAP toxicity.
A very common early symptom of APAP toxicity is itchy skin, among other symptoms.
So, the earlier observation that APAP taken in therapeutic doses will not, from what I know, include itchy skin as a side effect.
APAP toxicity, hoever, is a whole other kettle of fish.
Possibly, each of us is saying the same thing and making the answer more complicated than necessary.
Hope not.

I understood the same thing from all of you.

I think on the whole we are all saying the same thing. I just don't want people getting worried and thinking because they noticed some itching when taking a narcotic that OMG I am in liver failure. The most likely cause for the itching is histamine release that occurs when taking narcs. If you are taking medications regularly whether its over the counter stuff to prescribe meds you should have your kidney and liver function check every year with your physical. Minor liver and kidney failure can be treated and returned to normal if caught soon enough.

One of the big signs of liver failure is noticed when you go to the bathroom. When you pee it will be brown colored and look like tea.

If you have brown urine only or brown urine and severe itching you need to see the doc.