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#930484 - 09/16/09 12:00 PM
Re: withdrawing from methadone
[Re: Tall]
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GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 2651
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That was definitely never the case. Opiate replacement therapy is intended as a harm reduction strategy dealing with the negative behaviors associated with active drug addiction. Many, many, many methadone maintenance patients have successfully tapered and never looked back. I will say, however, that if you asked them if they believe they would have been far better off just initially stopping their drug of choice, the vast majority would say "yes." The fear of withdrawal is very often much worse than the withdrawal itself.
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#932193 - 09/20/09 11:45 AM
Re: withdrawing from methadone
[Re: brokeneckpain]
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Veteran
Registered: 04/23/09
Posts: 546
Loc: Out west
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#934984 - 09/25/09 03:03 PM
Re: withdrawing from methadone
[Re: nephro]
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Stranger
Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 11
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I take methadone because I was a heroin addict. But, I don't take it because I'm living in fear of the withdrawl nor do I ever "wish I would have just quit using H", like you say. I'm taking methadone because it is the ONLY thing that can safely keep me from being preoccupied with H (or whatever strong opiate I can find if H is unavailable) all day long every day. I can function at 100 percent, work, go to school, have relationships with family, friends and my lover. While on methadone I work 60 hours a week, I pay my mortgage, car payments, all my bills, shower, wake up early, go to bed early and sleep 8 hours, etc, etc, etc....Basically, I function LIKE A NORMAL HUMAN BEING. It makes me normal and lets me live a life--and I DESERVE that. It has NOTHING to do with tapering, with FEAR OF WD'S, or any other stupid idea a lot of you have. Methadone allows a lot of us, people that everyone thought were completely hopeless, live a life. It's that simple.
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#934992 - 09/25/09 03:11 PM
Re: withdrawing from methadone
[Re: skate23wood]
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Stranger
Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 11
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There are some negatives I see with methadone. 1.) People on it (and at some VERY ALARMING DOSE LEVELS) that have no business being on it. Usually very young (teen-early 20's), that messed around with pills (Hydro and possibly some Oxy) for a few months, maybe even a year or two (on and off when they had money). But, they ended up in the clinic to try to cop a free daily buzz. They talk the Doc and their counselor into higher and higher doses, and they are in much worse shape than when they originally made it to the clinic. That pisses me off and makes me sick. 10 bucks a day, man, these private FOR PROFIT clinics LOVE these kids. These kids can't function, are worthless on these high levels of 'Done, and are just as bad and hopeless as the addict on the streets. 2.) People that think the party is still going! They found something cheaper than Heroin (or Oxy if they're from Hillbilly regions of the USA(. They take their daily dose of methadone, then they start popping the Xanax. It does get you pretty twisted, and that's how they live their lives. Done in the morning, then popping Xannies all day. Living in "Methadonia" as they call it! These people are SERIOUSLY F-D UP. This is the Methadone Zombie, always on the nod, eyes that just look hollow and completly vacant. Sad, dude, really sad people. 3.) Ah, whatever, that's enough. Those 2 types of people are all I'm going to mention. They're at every clinic and drive us people that are trying to live a new life CRAZY.
Oh, and last thing, if you're going to get on methadone (whether it's for the right or wrong reasons), please follow this advice. Go to the clinic, pay your money, get your dose, and GET THE [censored] OUT OF THE CLINIC! Nothing worse to me than people that treat the clinic as their NEIGHBORHOOD BAR AT HAPPY HOUR. You know the types, the idiots that are usually on doses WAY TOO HIGH and taking Benzos, that take 20 minutes at the dosing window cuz they're chatting away with the dosing nurse. They hang out in the hall, in the reception area chatting away, drinking coffee, standing around for a couple hours every single morning. They bring their kids in, and the kids run around the place like wild freakin' injuns, because they love in their too! God, I flippin' hate those people at the clinic the most. Idiots.
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#935131 - 09/25/09 09:21 PM
Re: withdrawing from methadone
[Re: _99]
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GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 01/24/04
Posts: 2252
Loc: |20(|-|3||35|\/|6 1$ 6@`/
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What people don't understand about MMT is that methadone is not merely a substitute but a treatment to prevent relapse like antabuse. Here in Europe it's not a moral goal itself to get people off methadone because study after study for the last 30 years has shown it's the only thing that can reduce unsafe drug use, disease and crime. Short of pharmaceutical heroin of course, which will be started to be dispensed in my country very soon. If you take an ex-addict off his methadone, he will very quickly fall back to chronic heroin use. Keep him on it and he will only do it occasionally. The people you often see come to pick up their methadone looking stoned are very rarely on too big a dose(more often the dose is too small). They are most often intoxicated by combinations of benzodiapines and cannabis. The main side-abuse problem with methadone is benzos. The tragic fact that people often don't realise is that opiates cause irreversible downregulation of the mu-receptors. Once you have been taking an opiate for a number of years, you cannot go back to point zero. Your body has been changed and it will not return to normal by itself. Tapering methadone down makes no sense since you will be having very few opiate receptors left in your body, too few for your endogenous endorphins to bind to leaving you chronically deprived. You will have to fill in the gap with an opiate such as methadone or buprenorphine for the rest of your life. If you could see inside an addicts body you would know what damaged state he is in and why any call for abstinence is futile. I realise that the above is more or less off topic but I've written it to let people know what they are going into when taking an opiate on a daily basis, whether it's for pain or pleasure. so what do you think of ibogaine treatment then? i have read accounts of people taking in upwards of 5-600mgs/day of oxycodone. after ibogaine treatment, a 5 milligram percocet worked well on their pain. also, the longer you take opiates, the more receptors your bran creates to absorb/attach to them, hence tolerance raising, as there more receptors to fill. i am not sure i understand your comment of losing mu receptors, i would surmise you have more, otherwise, tolerance would not grow.
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#935347 - 09/26/09 12:59 PM
Re: withdrawing from methadone
[Re: _99]
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GRAND Pooh-Bah
Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 2651
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I believe it's firmly established that tolerance stays to some degree. Most medical textbooks on opiate treatment recognise the difference between people that have never been treated with opiates('opioid naive') and those who have. Those who are opioid naive require significantly lower doses because of their initial sensitivity.
The mechanism is simple receptor downregulation and opiates share this problem with many other classes of drugs.
A similar problem in reverse occurs with antipsychotic drugs. Initially they suppress symptoms well by blocking dopamine receptors. But even from day one the brain will increase both dopamine receptor density and synthesis. Heavy dosing with neuroleptics can raise both with 100-200% in less than a month. This is most likely what causes TD and other disabling side effects. These upregulations are also irreversible. Note that irreversible in this context means it will not reverse by itself.
Homeostasis is the great nemesis of medicine. Homeostasis cannot be beaten but it can be manipulated.
Naltrexone/naloxone can actually reset your sensitivity to zero or even increase it further. There is nothing spectacular about it. But in practice this treatment option is limited to very few patients and has more or less been abandoned in favour of mixed agonist/antagonists such as buprenorphine. The primary reason is that people who had their opiate sensitivity restored would often end up overdosing because they took the dose they used to. Naltrexone has to be taken on a daily basis and even an implant is not foolproof since there will be fluctuations in blood levels.
The second reason is that chronic treatment with naltrexone naturally has a very bad impact on your well being. You can't just block out a major hormone and expect to be able to live normally. The side effects of chronic blockade is depression, asthenia, low motivation, hypersensitivity to pain, shivering and a whole lot of subtle symptoms. This is why buprenorphine is preferred over naltrexone, it is also an agonist so it doesn't cause these problems as much.
So you cannot keep a person on naltexone indefinetely. He has to get off after a few months, otherwise he will be a wreck prone to other types of abuse such as cocaine. Then you will have a polyabuser instead.
Naltrexone can reverse tolerance but is only suitable for users that are highly motivated to start a completely new life.
I don't know much about ibogaine but it sounds very promising. I'm convinced it can reduce both tolerance and withdrawals but the question is how much. I saw an example on TV about a guy who got off a fairly large methadone cold turkey using ibogaine. It was obvious that he did not suffer the expected symptoms. It should have made him a shivering wreck but from what I could see he suffered only fatigue and a runny nose. I would like to see it being applied on a larger scale but it's being complicated by its legal status. I don't understand why it must be illegal, it has little if any abuse potential and is pharmacologically related to reserpine. It is difficult to know where to start regarding the mis-stated facts or conclusions contained in this post. There is absolutely no scientific research that confirms that someone treated with methadone or Suboxone as a harm reduction therapy must stay on those drugs for life. That is just not true from a medical standpoint. As to whether a heroin junkie will immediately relapse after discontinuing methadone treatment, that is a very individual consequence that some people have convinced themselves about. Long term opioid use does not decrease the number of opiate receptors. To the contrary, it increases the number to accomodate the influx of exogenous chemicals being introduced into the body. These excess receptors never go away even after opioids are stopped. That is why an addict cannot return to so-called "responsible" use. Once those dormant excess receptors are energized, you are very rapidly back to where you were when you stopped in terms of tolerance and dependence. I don't know where you got your information about long term use of naltrexone but it does not "block out a major hormone" (whatever that means). It is an opioid antagonist that interfers with an exogenous opiate's ability to bind to a receptor. And I would very much like to see your source material on the causal relationship between naltrexone and cocaine. If an addict can discontinue their drug of choice without the interim step of methadone or Suboxone then that is clearly the best choice. However, I don't think anyone should be encouraged to believe that if they choose the interim step, you are making a life-long decision. That is bullshit. Your original advice is the best overall...just don't go overboard with irrational drug use in the first place and all of this conversation will just be academic.
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#935395 - 09/26/09 03:41 PM
Re: withdrawing from methadone
[Re: Tall]
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Stranger
Registered: 09/26/09
Posts: 2
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Methadone doesn't have to be a life-long "problem" and there are things that can help to begin mending the destruction to the brain cause by addiciton. Methadone is like everything else-if used correctly it can do a world of good, but when abused it can turn someones life into a hell on earth. I began taking 5-HTP along with to help increase the seratonine that was destroyed by my years of addiction-I found a web site where I am able to order a very good brand (I have tried others and they weren't as good)I get 400 for $14 and it has helped more than anything else. I went on Methadone once to becuase I couldn't take the withdrawl from the heroin any longer, and the methadone was so much cheaper-I didn't want to quit using-I enjoyed getting high and the life style it entailed. I hiked my methadone dose as high up as I possible to handle it and stayed comatose for days on it...so of course it didn't do any good what-so-ever and it would have been very easy for me to continue abusing it, and yes-to stay on it for 10,20, or 50 years if I chose. I got tired of going to the clinic everyday and went back on heroin. After almost fifteen years of severe addiction I did decide to finally "get my [censored]] together", but of course this was to be easier said than done. I did go back on the methadone program, this time with the intention of recovery and getting clean. I stayed on a low dose-around 150mg just enough to cut all the craving and withdrawl-with some serious work things did change for me-I became a wife and mother, working 60-70 hours a week, going to school, involving myself with helping others that were going through some of the same things I experienced(poverty,homelessness,incarceration, addiction,etc.etc.etc.) After about two and a half years I decided it was time and began to detox off the methadone-first with just lowering 5mg every two weeks then less (2mg-5mg) every 2-4 weeks depending on how things were going.The slow detox along with the 5-HTP & helped a great deal in my beling able to get off the methadone without any problems. So yes, it can be a very useful medicaiton, and no people are not destined to be on it for life, just as they are not destined to be addicts forever. It comes down to how bad someone wants something and how hard they are willing to work to achieve it.
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