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#928479 - 09/11/09 03:51 PM withdrawing from methadone
le4ch Offline
Banned. soliciting
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Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 15
I am withdrawing from methadone and need to wein myself off of it, any ideas, please post.

thanks.

garrett

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#928719 - 09/12/09 08:14 AM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: le4ch]
hardworker44 Offline
Banned. Insulting several members... just rude for no reason...
Journeyman

Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 63

CHCEK OUT A METHADONE CLINIC!

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#928721 - 09/12/09 08:19 AM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: hardworker44]
alerzz Offline
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Yeah...methadone clinic is the obvious answer to this one. I used to go to one, if you have any questions I can answer them for you..

The one I went to cuts you down 5mg every 2 weeks until your off, withdrawal isn't bad at all at that schedule

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#930290 - 09/15/09 09:20 PM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: alerzz]
Tall Offline
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Registered: 04/23/09
Posts: 546
Loc: Out west
I alwasy thought once on methadone, you had to take it for life. I guess thats changed.

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#930484 - 09/16/09 12:00 PM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: Tall]
martind Offline
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Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 2651
That was definitely never the case.
Opiate replacement therapy is intended as a harm reduction strategy dealing with the negative behaviors associated with active drug addiction.
Many, many, many methadone maintenance patients have successfully tapered and never looked back.
I will say, however, that if you asked them if they believe they would have been far better off just initially stopping their drug of choice, the vast majority would say "yes."
The fear of withdrawal is very often much worse than the withdrawal itself.

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#930519 - 09/16/09 01:25 PM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: martind]
hardworker44 Offline
Banned. Insulting several members... just rude for no reason...
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Registered: 08/12/09
Posts: 63
i would have to agree 100% omo

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#931008 - 09/17/09 02:13 PM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: TAZLOVER]
martind Offline
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Registered: 05/01/08
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Patients who are treated at a methadone clinic are simply avoiding opiate withdrawals by substituting methadone. That's why they take it along with avoiding the dangerous behavior associated with street drug use such as needles, disease, crime, etc. They may or may not be "getting a buzz" depending on what they are loading in addition and/or how long they have been taking it. If they are sticking to the clinic's program (and damn few do), it is probably accurate to say that they have a dependence on the methadone rather than addiction.
Those who are committed to stopping all together then move to a schedule of tapering the methadone. That's the theory anyway.
Someone prescribed methadone for chronic pain is typically on a much smaller daily dose. However, there is certainly a discontinuation syndrome (withdrawal) and potential for abuse associated with this type of treatment also.
There are lots of people in treatment at methadone clinics all over this country who never laid eyes on any heroin.

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#931011 - 09/17/09 02:17 PM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: TAZLOVER]
brokeneckpain Offline
Banned. Too much trouble and posting in a way that is not in the best interest of members
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Registered: 01/08/09
Posts: 336
Loc: Texas
After my accident in Hawaii I quickly learned they a freely prescribing methadone for pain. I found it control my pain somewhat It is odd how so many meds now, upon reading the drug info pamphlet provided, you will notice towards the bottom it will say something like "med is often prescribed for other conditions not listed here". When i came back to the mainland, the Dr's here freaked at the idea of me on methadone. I guess every geographical area has its "preferred method of pain control"...

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#932193 - 09/20/09 11:45 AM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: brokeneckpain]
Tall Offline
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Registered: 04/23/09
Posts: 546
Loc: Out west
Ok, thanks for the info.

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#934123 - 09/23/09 10:47 PM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: brokeneckpain]
akia1 Offline
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Registered: 12/30/02
Posts: 371
Loc: The Deep South (USA)

and methadone is REALLY cheap too

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#934229 - 09/24/09 03:43 AM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: akia1]
cheeseburgher Offline
Member

Registered: 03/25/08
Posts: 114
yeah it is really cheap, much much cheaper than OC for example

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#934442 - 09/24/09 01:27 PM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: le4ch]
_99 Offline
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Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 63

Methadone is actually a great pain medicine comparable to morphine. It's a NMDA antagonist so it doesn't lose its effect quickly like other opiates with time. It's much more economical than oxycontin(screw without end) in the long term. You can get a huge tolerance though, because of the long half life.

The best thing is to stay away from opiates unless you desperately need them for pain control. You will get a huge monkey on your back no matter how you handle it.

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#934507 - 09/24/09 03:32 PM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: _99]
martind Offline
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That is very good advice about the potential dangers of opiate use.
However, methadone is definitely not an NMDA antagonist. Those drugs are typical dissociative anesthetics like ketamine or nitrous oxide.
Methadone is just another synthetic opioid narcotic.

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#934650 - 09/24/09 07:57 PM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: martind]
_99 Offline
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Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 63
Yeah it may be a little surprising that it's an NMDA antagonist. It's not a strong one such as ketamine but it does have significance as it helps retain the pain killing effect over time and slow down the runaway tolerance buildup associated with opiates. Along with the high potency(as a result of the long halflife) that can equal ridiculous quantities of morphine, this makes it a good choice for chronic pain. But as I mentioned, the monkey will be waiting for you. You opiate receptors will become irreversibly downregulated for the rest of your life.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob...005f92bb3991802
http://www.mywhatever.com/cifwriter/library/eperc/fastfact/ff75.html

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#934850 - 09/25/09 10:05 AM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: _99]
martind Offline
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Interesting background material. There is not, however, a widely held opinion among medical researchers regarding the reported enhanced pain syndrome effect that this stereoisomer has as an NMDA antagonist.
However, as the link points out, it very well may account for the fact that methadone can be a better pain treatment choice because of its reduced tolerance curve.
Regardless of all of that, methadone has no clinical application as a dissociative or anesthetic drug which is the common purpose and definition of NMDA antagonists.
Thank you for the links.

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#934969 - 09/25/09 02:40 PM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: _99]
nephro Offline
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Regarding the first link, I can tell you that tolerance to pethidine develops extremely readily, regardless of any NMDA antagonistic properties. This also may be complicated by the fact that the parent drug has an unbearably short duration of action when continually dosed, whereas the metabolite norpethidine lasts much longer, and can accumulate to produce the problems of CNS toxicity associated with the drug.

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#934984 - 09/25/09 03:03 PM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: nephro]
skate23wood Offline
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Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 11
I take methadone because I was a heroin addict. But, I don't take it because I'm living in fear of the withdrawl nor do I ever "wish I would have just quit using H", like you say. I'm taking methadone because it is the ONLY thing that can safely keep me from being preoccupied with H (or whatever strong opiate I can find if H is unavailable) all day long every day. I can function at 100 percent, work, go to school, have relationships with family, friends and my lover. While on methadone I work 60 hours a week, I pay my mortgage, car payments, all my bills, shower, wake up early, go to bed early and sleep 8 hours, etc, etc, etc....Basically, I function LIKE A NORMAL HUMAN BEING. It makes me normal and lets me live a life--and I DESERVE that. It has NOTHING to do with tapering, with FEAR OF WD'S, or any other stupid idea a lot of you have. Methadone allows a lot of us, people that everyone thought were completely hopeless, live a life. It's that simple.

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#934992 - 09/25/09 03:11 PM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: skate23wood]
skate23wood Offline
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There are some negatives I see with methadone. 1.) People on it (and at some VERY ALARMING DOSE LEVELS) that have no business being on it. Usually very young (teen-early 20's), that messed around with pills (Hydro and possibly some Oxy) for a few months, maybe even a year or two (on and off when they had money). But, they ended up in the clinic to try to cop a free daily buzz. They talk the Doc and their counselor into higher and higher doses, and they are in much worse shape than when they originally made it to the clinic. That pisses me off and makes me sick. 10 bucks a day, man, these private FOR PROFIT clinics LOVE these kids. These kids can't function, are worthless on these high levels of 'Done, and are just as bad and hopeless as the addict on the streets. 2.) People that think the party is still going! They found something cheaper than Heroin (or Oxy if they're from Hillbilly regions of the USA(. They take their daily dose of methadone, then they start popping the Xanax. It does get you pretty twisted, and that's how they live their lives. Done in the morning, then popping Xannies all day. Living in "Methadonia" as they call it! These people are SERIOUSLY F-D UP. This is the Methadone Zombie, always on the nod, eyes that just look hollow and completly vacant. Sad, dude, really sad people. 3.) Ah, whatever, that's enough. Those 2 types of people are all I'm going to mention. They're at every clinic and drive us people that are trying to live a new life CRAZY.

Oh, and last thing, if you're going to get on methadone (whether it's for the right or wrong reasons), please follow this advice. Go to the clinic, pay your money, get your dose, and GET THE [censored] OUT OF THE CLINIC! Nothing worse to me than people that treat the clinic as their NEIGHBORHOOD BAR AT HAPPY HOUR. You know the types, the idiots that are usually on doses WAY TOO HIGH and taking Benzos, that take 20 minutes at the dosing window cuz they're chatting away with the dosing nurse. They hang out in the hall, in the reception area chatting away, drinking coffee, standing around for a couple hours every single morning. They bring their kids in, and the kids run around the place like wild freakin' injuns, because they love in their too! God, I flippin' hate those people at the clinic the most. Idiots.

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#935027 - 09/25/09 03:47 PM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: skate23wood]
martind Offline
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Although you say methadone allows you to live a life you deserve, it sounds like you're not real happy with life at the clinic.
If you are content with your life being like that for the next 5-10 years, then I can see why you have no interest in tapering off the drug.
Take a close look at some of the "old timers" at your clinic and imagine yourself in their shoes some day.
Tapering might not be such an unacceptable alternative in that context.

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#935056 - 09/25/09 04:29 PM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: martind]
_99 Offline
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Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 63
What people don't understand about MMT is that methadone is not merely a substitute but a treatment to prevent relapse like antabuse. Here in Europe it's not a moral goal itself to get people off methadone because study after study for the last 30 years has shown it's the only thing that can reduce unsafe drug use, disease and crime. Short of pharmaceutical heroin of course, which will be started to be dispensed in my country very soon.

If you take an ex-addict off his methadone, he will very quickly fall back to chronic heroin use. Keep him on it and he will only do it occasionally. The people you often see come to pick up their methadone looking stoned are very rarely on too big a dose(more often the dose is too small). They are most often intoxicated by combinations of benzodiapines and cannabis. The main side-abuse problem with methadone is benzos.

The tragic fact that people often don't realise is that opiates cause irreversible downregulation of the mu-receptors. Once you have been taking an opiate for a number of years, you cannot go back to point zero. Your body has been changed and it will not return to normal by itself. Tapering methadone down makes no sense since you will be having very few opiate receptors left in your body, too few for your endogenous endorphins to bind to leaving you chronically deprived. You will have to fill in the gap with an opiate such as methadone or buprenorphine for the rest of your life. If you could see inside an addicts body you would know what damaged state he is in and why any call for abstinence is futile.

I realise that the above is more or less off topic but I've written it to let people know what they are going into when taking an opiate on a daily basis, whether it's for pain or pleasure.

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#935127 - 09/25/09 08:50 PM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: _99]
nephro Offline
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Registered: 09/04/06
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Naltrexone implants can also prevent relapse, though they are best implanted after withdrawal.

I find it interesting what you say about long-term opioid use causing irreversible tolerance for the rest of your life. I've heard others say it too, but I've not seen a source about this, and would very much like to.

Furthermore, there have been articles about using opioid antagonists (such as naltrexone) to 'repair' tolerance to almost opioid-naive levels. This would correspond with the ultra-low dose naltrexone treatment that is is meant to significantly reduce the rise in tolerance when taken with opioid agonists, and therefore enhance total analgesia .

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#935131 - 09/25/09 09:21 PM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: _99]
funkybreakz Offline
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Originally Posted By: _99
What people don't understand about MMT is that methadone is not merely a substitute but a treatment to prevent relapse like antabuse. Here in Europe it's not a moral goal itself to get people off methadone because study after study for the last 30 years has shown it's the only thing that can reduce unsafe drug use, disease and crime. Short of pharmaceutical heroin of course, which will be started to be dispensed in my country very soon.

If you take an ex-addict off his methadone, he will very quickly fall back to chronic heroin use. Keep him on it and he will only do it occasionally. The people you often see come to pick up their methadone looking stoned are very rarely on too big a dose(more often the dose is too small). They are most often intoxicated by combinations of benzodiapines and cannabis. The main side-abuse problem with methadone is benzos.

The tragic fact that people often don't realise is that opiates cause irreversible downregulation of the mu-receptors. Once you have been taking an opiate for a number of years, you cannot go back to point zero. Your body has been changed and it will not return to normal by itself. Tapering methadone down makes no sense since you will be having very few opiate receptors left in your body, too few for your endogenous endorphins to bind to leaving you chronically deprived. You will have to fill in the gap with an opiate such as methadone or buprenorphine for the rest of your life. If you could see inside an addicts body you would know what damaged state he is in and why any call for abstinence is futile.

I realise that the above is more or less off topic but I've written it to let people know what they are going into when taking an opiate on a daily basis, whether it's for pain or pleasure.


so what do you think of ibogaine treatment then? i have read accounts of people taking in upwards of 5-600mgs/day of oxycodone. after ibogaine treatment, a 5 milligram percocet worked well on their pain.

also, the longer you take opiates, the more receptors your bran creates to absorb/attach to them, hence tolerance raising, as there more receptors to fill. i am not sure i understand your comment of losing mu receptors, i would surmise you have more, otherwise, tolerance would not grow.

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#935209 - 09/26/09 07:57 AM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: funkybreakz]
_99 Offline
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Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 63
I believe it's firmly established that tolerance stays to some degree. Most medical textbooks on opiate treatment recognise the difference between people that have never been treated with opiates('opioid naive') and those who have. Those who are opioid naive require significantly lower doses because of their initial sensitivity.

The mechanism is simple receptor downregulation and opiates share this problem with many other classes of drugs.

A similar problem in reverse occurs with antipsychotic drugs. Initially they suppress symptoms well by blocking dopamine receptors. But even from day one the brain will increase both dopamine receptor density and synthesis. Heavy dosing with neuroleptics can raise both with 100-200% in less than a month. This is most likely what causes TD and other disabling side effects. These upregulations are also irreversible. Note that irreversible in this context means it will not reverse by itself.

Homeostasis is the great nemesis of medicine. Homeostasis cannot be beaten but it can be manipulated.

Naltrexone/naloxone can actually reset your sensitivity to zero or even increase it further. There is nothing spectacular about it. But in practice this treatment option is limited to very few patients and has more or less been abandoned in favour of mixed agonist/antagonists such as buprenorphine. The primary reason is that people who had their opiate sensitivity restored would often end up overdosing because they took the dose they used to. Naltrexone has to be taken on a daily basis and even an implant is not foolproof since there will be fluctuations in blood levels.

The second reason is that chronic treatment with naltrexone naturally has a very bad impact on your well being. You can't just block out a major hormone and expect to be able to live normally. The side effects of chronic blockade is depression, asthenia, low motivation, hypersensitivity to pain, shivering and a whole lot of subtle symptoms. This is why buprenorphine is preferred over naltrexone, it is also an agonist so it doesn't cause these problems as much.

So you cannot keep a person on naltexone indefinetely. He has to get off after a few months, otherwise he will be a wreck prone to other types of abuse such as cocaine. Then you will have a polyabuser instead.

Naltrexone can reverse tolerance but is only suitable for users that are highly motivated to start a completely new life.

I don't know much about ibogaine but it sounds very promising. I'm convinced it can reduce both tolerance and withdrawals but the question is how much. I saw an example on TV about a guy who got off a fairly large methadone cold turkey using ibogaine. It was obvious that he did not suffer the expected symptoms. It should have made him a shivering wreck but from what I could see he suffered only fatigue and a runny nose. I would like to see it being applied on a larger scale but it's being complicated by its legal status. I don't understand why it must be illegal, it has little if any abuse potential and is pharmacologically related to reserpine.

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#935228 - 09/26/09 08:39 AM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: _99]
bestdad Offline
Member

Registered: 04/05/09
Posts: 127
To get off Methadone I started taking Suboxone. You see a doctor once a month, unlike a methadone clinic when you have to go every day. It's a very strong substance just like Methadone. I'm down to 1mg in the morning and 1mg at night. They will most likely start you off at 8mg in the morning and 4mg at night. Good luck getting off Methadone, I know people who have been addicted to it for 15 plus years and will probably never get off. Move on before it's to late.

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#935294 - 09/26/09 11:07 AM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: ]
Tall Offline
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Registered: 04/23/09
Posts: 546
Loc: Out west
You guys are soooo knowledgeable. I appreciate your input. I just learned a bundle here. Skate just verified what I always thought about taking ex-heroin addicts taking meth for the rest of their lives. She sounds like she plans on doing this until she dies. I think I would look alternatives to ridding myself of the heroin addiction. She, you, Skate23, deserve to go free. Theres something out there that can set you totally free from, Im sure of it!

I wouldnt accept anything that would hook me up for the rest of my life! NO WAY!

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#935296 - 09/26/09 11:09 AM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: Tall]
Tall Offline
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Registered: 04/23/09
Posts: 546
Loc: Out west
There are natural remedies to everything on earth! The Bible speaks of this. That God put "healing in the herbs"

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#935335 - 09/26/09 12:42 PM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: Tall]
nephro Offline
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Registered: 09/04/06
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He probably did, but heroin comes from one of God's plants in the first place.

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#935347 - 09/26/09 12:59 PM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: _99]
martind Offline
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Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 2651
Originally Posted By: _99
I believe it's firmly established that tolerance stays to some degree. Most medical textbooks on opiate treatment recognise the difference between people that have never been treated with opiates('opioid naive') and those who have. Those who are opioid naive require significantly lower doses because of their initial sensitivity.

The mechanism is simple receptor downregulation and opiates share this problem with many other classes of drugs.

A similar problem in reverse occurs with antipsychotic drugs. Initially they suppress symptoms well by blocking dopamine receptors. But even from day one the brain will increase both dopamine receptor density and synthesis. Heavy dosing with neuroleptics can raise both with 100-200% in less than a month. This is most likely what causes TD and other disabling side effects. These upregulations are also irreversible. Note that irreversible in this context means it will not reverse by itself.

Homeostasis is the great nemesis of medicine. Homeostasis cannot be beaten but it can be manipulated.

Naltrexone/naloxone can actually reset your sensitivity to zero or even increase it further. There is nothing spectacular about it. But in practice this treatment option is limited to very few patients and has more or less been abandoned in favour of mixed agonist/antagonists such as buprenorphine. The primary reason is that people who had their opiate sensitivity restored would often end up overdosing because they took the dose they used to. Naltrexone has to be taken on a daily basis and even an implant is not foolproof since there will be fluctuations in blood levels.

The second reason is that chronic treatment with naltrexone naturally has a very bad impact on your well being. You can't just block out a major hormone and expect to be able to live normally. The side effects of chronic blockade is depression, asthenia, low motivation, hypersensitivity to pain, shivering and a whole lot of subtle symptoms. This is why buprenorphine is preferred over naltrexone, it is also an agonist so it doesn't cause these problems as much.

So you cannot keep a person on naltexone indefinetely. He has to get off after a few months, otherwise he will be a wreck prone to other types of abuse such as cocaine. Then you will have a polyabuser instead.

Naltrexone can reverse tolerance but is only suitable for users that are highly motivated to start a completely new life.

I don't know much about ibogaine but it sounds very promising. I'm convinced it can reduce both tolerance and withdrawals but the question is how much. I saw an example on TV about a guy who got off a fairly large methadone cold turkey using ibogaine. It was obvious that he did not suffer the expected symptoms. It should have made him a shivering wreck but from what I could see he suffered only fatigue and a runny nose. I would like to see it being applied on a larger scale but it's being complicated by its legal status. I don't understand why it must be illegal, it has little if any abuse potential and is pharmacologically related to reserpine.


It is difficult to know where to start regarding the mis-stated facts or conclusions contained in this post.
There is absolutely no scientific research that confirms that someone treated with methadone or Suboxone as a harm reduction therapy must stay on those drugs for life. That is just not true from a medical standpoint. As to whether a heroin junkie will immediately relapse after discontinuing methadone treatment, that is a very individual consequence that some people have convinced themselves about.
Long term opioid use does not decrease the number of opiate receptors. To the contrary, it increases the number to accomodate the influx of exogenous chemicals being introduced into the body. These excess receptors never go away even after opioids are stopped. That is why an addict cannot return to so-called "responsible" use. Once those dormant excess receptors are energized, you are very rapidly back to where you were when you stopped in terms of tolerance and dependence.
I don't know where you got your information about long term use of naltrexone but it does not "block out a major hormone" (whatever that means). It is an opioid antagonist that interfers with an exogenous opiate's ability to bind to a receptor. And I would very much like to see your source material on the causal relationship between naltrexone and cocaine.
If an addict can discontinue their drug of choice without the interim step of methadone or Suboxone then that is clearly the best choice. However, I don't think anyone should be encouraged to believe that if they choose the interim step, you are making a life-long decision. That is bullshit.
Your original advice is the best overall...just don't go overboard with irrational drug use in the first place and all of this conversation will just be academic.


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#935395 - 09/26/09 03:41 PM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: Tall]
Movnonj Offline
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Registered: 09/26/09
Posts: 2
Methadone doesn't have to be a life-long "problem" and there are things that can help to begin mending the destruction to the brain cause by addiciton. Methadone is like everything else-if used correctly it can do a world of good, but when abused it can turn someones life into a hell on earth. I began taking 5-HTP along with to help increase the seratonine that was destroyed by my years of addiction-I found a web site where I am able to order a very good brand (I have tried others and they weren't as good)I get 400 for $14 and it has helped more than anything else.
I went on Methadone once to becuase I couldn't take the withdrawl from the heroin any longer, and the methadone was so much cheaper-I didn't want to quit using-I enjoyed getting high and the life style it entailed. I hiked my methadone dose as high up as I possible to handle it and stayed comatose for days on it...so of course it didn't do any good what-so-ever and it would have been very easy for me to continue abusing it, and yes-to stay on it for 10,20, or 50 years if I chose. I got tired of going to the clinic everyday and went back on heroin. After almost fifteen years of severe addiction I did decide to finally "get my [censored]] together", but of course this was to be easier said than done. I did go back on the methadone program, this time with the intention of recovery and getting clean. I stayed on a low dose-around 150mg just enough to cut all the craving and withdrawl-with some serious work things did change for me-I became a wife and mother, working 60-70 hours a week, going to school, involving myself with helping others that were going through some of the same things I experienced(poverty,homelessness,incarceration, addiction,etc.etc.etc.)
After about two and a half years I decided it was time and began to detox off the methadone-first with just lowering 5mg every two weeks then less (2mg-5mg) every 2-4 weeks depending on how things were going.The slow detox along with the 5-HTP & helped a great deal in my beling able to get off the methadone without any problems. So yes, it can be a very useful medicaiton, and no people are not destined to be on it for life, just as they are not destined to be addicts forever. It comes down to how bad someone wants something and how hard they are willing to work to achieve it.

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#935425 - 09/26/09 04:41 PM Re: withdrawing from methadone [Re: Movnonj]
nephro Offline
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Do you not think these clinics are a bit generous with their definition of low doses? 150mg sounds high to me, even though I've seen much higher doses given. The protocol in the UK is to start on 10-40mg, increased by no more than 10mg daily, and no increase higher than 30mg weekly, with a maximum of 120mg daily.

Sometimes seeing the doses people on here are given, it would probably increase their tolerance by starting too high and increasing too rapidly, leading to the need for ridiculous doses that otherwise wouldn't be needed.

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