Please advise if this is against the Rules. But these have been dumped into my town recently and they are excellent quality. I find them very useful for my public speaking class. Anyways...does anyone know which IOP these are originating from?

Here is a picture of a blister pack of 9.



Sorry for poor quality picture but here are some details:
- Manufactured by Torrent Pharmaceuticals LTD
- 2mg banana flavored
- Clonotril

A few different pharms have these..most places who have Indian meds will stock them

I know i have very few posts but you can see that i am a long time lurker and not trying to cause any harm. I am not trying to be sketchy and im sorry if it came out that way. When i said dumped into my town i just meant AFOAF is getting these online...i know he is and he has admitted it and he seems to be able to get them consistently and quickly. He just wont tell me from where so i thought id try to figure out the IOP he is ordering from.

I dont know what the problem is with me mentioning the flavor...i mentioned that to narrow it down to what specific IOP it is coming from as well as added a picture to further specify where i can get these for myself.

My last year of college has just started and I have been dreading to take this public speaking class because i get very anxious speaking in front of an audience - so that is why i mentioned that as well.

I don't know, but its pretty rare that people come here with a picture of the 'exact drug' they are looking to buy.

Ok...well sorry. I really don't understand whats so phishy about my post. I guess ill just do some of my own browsing instead of asking around.

As mentioned i posted the picture to narrow down what the website is he is getting it from because i find these of great quality which i have come to known is not always the case with IOPs.

You guys are ridiculous with all this Shill, LEO bullshit

yes, but you don't need them IMO, ( you may be too young to get in this habit) you said "My last year of college has just started and I have been dreading to take this public speaking class because i get very anxious speaking in front of an audience "

I'd go to the doctor and ask him or her if your health can handle a prescribed beta blocker for you. That should take away the nerves when speaking in front of a group of people, and also you won't
have too much trouble when when the speach is over.

Good luck.

EVERYONE has nervs initially when having to speak in front of people.

years ago, i did not even think to look to medication because i was nervous about my public speaking class. i wrote a good speech, got up there an pretended i was talking to a bunch of people who knew less than i did and it worked just fine. i did well on my speech and any type of nervousness flew right out the window. got all As in my class.. this was in the 80's mind you.

a simple thing such as public speaking should be overcome normally at your age, and the brain will react positively there on out when you have to do a speech. masking it with benzos right off the bat will do nothing but relax you and possibly make you forget part of your speech. and you will still be nervous and look to benzos again when your next speech comes up. when in all reality, when you realize that it is not hard and you enjoy it (without a pill), you will be just fine from there on out.

I concur. Even though you must perform your due diligence and keep your "Scam Radar" up all the time; "Paranoia will destroy ya...."

The Dale Carnegie course helped me greatly in this area. Like Funky is saying, you start speaking while relying on benzos to make it happen, you will be just be heading for the next pill for the next speech.

Very interesting, i have never heard of these drugs used for this. Just did some googling and it seems to be used a lot for musicians. I have mainly been reading about Propranolol. Do you think that is the best type? I read that it is not officially prescribed for stage fright - so how hard do you think it would be to convince my Dr. to prescribe me this?

Easier than getting them to prescribe a benzo, especially if you say you prefer a non-addictive drug instead of benzos.

I personally feel Beta blockers (proprananol) and Alpha antagonists (clonidine) work the best for anxiety, as least for me.

As far as “ease” of getting a doctor to prescribe it? Kind of depends on the doctor and how you present yourself. I currently use clonidine everyday, have been for a couple of years. The doctor actually suggested them on my first visit.

There is NO pleasure with these drugs... only the relief from debilitating anxiety/social anxiety.

That's pretty interesting. Are there any common side effects using them? Any sort of risks? I've been talking to my doctor about wanting to get off clonazepam (1mg a day) but even lowering the dose has been really difficult for me. I wonder if it's worth mentioning.

The original use of beta blockers may have been to lower blood pressure ( also it has other uses) what I found is they work very well at lowering blood
pressure. The side effects (IME) are felt after a week or two of usage, you can become somewhat depressed because some beta blockers
( AKA toprol ) may just slow down your body and thinking, and cause a loss of energy. So you need to be monoriting your mood (IME) to see if this
is long term.

I have also used clonidine, that one gave me an alerigic reaction, swelling of the toung, neck, and a bit of left side of my face. But in fairness
I think this only happens to 1-2% of the population. ( as I am also alerigic to ace-inhibitors, and calcium channel blockers----mostly prescribed for hypertention)

dumped into your college town..... and where would that be? alabama?

edit: indianmeds and onlinesolution used to have them, and i believe indianmeds is the only ones to carry them now

leave the kid alone. I droped out of college for a year because my major required presentations almost weekly. I either skipped the classes entirely - when I was due to speak, and sometimes that even resulted in a failing garde. Thats how back my social anxiety was. I had two options drink heavily or not go, luckly I found a caring pschatrist who understoood and put me on a benzo that I could take prior to speaking in front of the class. I have since graduated and wouldnt have if it wasent for getting help. I was heavily self medicating with alcahol for my sad - now I dont drink at all.

what did i do to the kid?......

Dunno, I was wondering too.

Im wasent talking to you specifically, in reply to the
general tone of this discussion.

Been lurking but wanted to add my thoughts here, in case anyone cares.

Firstly, I don't know how people can be certain of who NEEDS what. People can't even always be sure of what they themselves need. And everyone has their own biases. "Needs" are also always to/for something, eg "I need air FOR breathing," "I need oxygen TO live," "I need food TO avoid starving," "I need putty FOR this construction job," "I need to turn in this paper TO get a good grade," etc. I don't know if anyone is arguing "keystonelight needs a benzo to stay alive" or even "keystonelight needs a benzo to pass the class," but perhaps "keystonelight needs a benzo to be comfortable fully participating in this class." And then again, perhaps not. I'm not going to judge for him. Perhaps he should let a good, competent doctor/psychiatrist help him figure out whether he "needs" these or other benzos or other meds or talk therapy or anything, but in the end, he's the only one who directly experiences his own body and feelings.

Age also shouldn't be a factor. At no age is someone "too young" to be ill, to be in need of medication, to deserve medical care, to suffer... If he was in his 60s and reentering college, would you say the same thing to him? What if he was 80? Is it relevant? How is ageism justified here?

I also believe in the right to accept or decline treatment, and I think this should be expanded in many cultures. How is it any different from eyesight? Maybe if he used talk therapy or just "will power," he could "get over" this anxiety "for good" (or at least until something new triggers/worsens it), but at what cost, and is this cost worth it? That's for him to decide. Maybe he'd prefer to pop a benzo as needed, even if it becomes a habit, a tool he relies on. Some people could get laser surgery for their vision, but at what cost, and is this cost worth it? Maybe they'd prefer to use contacts or glasses, even if it becomes a habit, a tool they rely on...for life. That's for them to decide. Just because YOU think a permanent treatment, a less invasive treatment, a cheaper treatment, etc is better for someone else, doesn't mean they'll agree.

http://www.rxlist.com and similar sites can be useful for figuring out SEs, interactions, etc. And all that should be factored into the decision. And the decision should be left up to the patient. If dependence and withdrawal (and harmful misuse/abuse) are larger risks of some drugs and smaller risks for others, and that's important to the patient, of course that should be among the SEs to factor in. But I don't think it's necessarily a bad sort of habit to have a crutch (whether it's a pill, or putting a little cross or heart-shaped pin or whatever in your pocket, or going for a walk before the speech, etc) for many years or all your life. Surely if you lose your cross or can't go outside the whole day, that could be very distressing, but that's just another risk to factor in, not a dealbreaker. Meds also tend to not be troublesome in terms of "addiction" unless there's already a severe underlying problem that causes a desire for ongoing self medication, and dependence isn't really an issue if you take a low dose of a benzo once in a while (such as days you give speeches).

I was going to say more but I must go now. Good luck and take care, all

The volcano just erupted.

Thanks for all of your replys guys. I understand why some of you started bashing me and i thank the ones who defended me. My mom is prescribed to a beta blocker and she said I could try one out before a speech and see if it helps. If not, I will have to order via IOP because my dr absolutely wont prescribe me any benzo. I have registered and dropped this class 3 times now in my career and this is my last chance. I have been to my Dr. explaining why i want these drugs and he wont see things my way. This is why I am researching through IOP. They are too expensive in my town on the black market.

i was just wondering if he was from Alabama, because that is the state where i used to go to school?....

good idea about the beta blocker, as the banana k2s are very addictive and before you know it you could have forgotten that they are medicine

Aw np. And I don't think they meant to bash you (about the performance anxiety), to be fair. (The "you must be LE" comments I will probably never understand. Anyone who wants to figure out what sites people are ordering from can just look at the threads, it's no secret.) I think they had the best of intentions and wanted to help. Maybe they had bad side effects using benzos (many people fall into the trap of "I personally didn't like it, so I must warn other people away from it"). Or just had different ideas (eg beta blockers). And I'm afraid some people just made inaccurate assumptions about how severe your problem is, and think it's similar to the type of normal, "no problem"-type of problem they've experienced.

I see a lot of examples of this, both medical and otherwise.

Social anxiety = Everyone gets shy sometimes, just be yourself and don't worry!

Agoraphobia = Everyone gets nervous about going to strange new places sometimes, you just have to do it and you'll be fine. You'll wonder why you hesitated in the first place once you're out there.

Depression = Everyone gets down sometimes, just cheer up and quit whining.

Bipolar = Everyone gets mood swings sometimes. Ups and downs are part of life.

Chronic pain = Everyone gets hurt sometimes. I stubbed my toe the other day and it hurt so much for a few minutes, I didn't feel like getting up and washing the dishes. I feel your pain. But you just have to buck up and take it like a man and get doing what you gotta do anyway.

PTSD = Everyone has bad stuff happen to them. Stop thinking about it so much and you'll get over it.

Specific phobias = Everyone gets irrationally afraid of things sometimes. Stop being silly and freaking out about it.

Bullying = Every kid gets picked on sometimes. Just ignore them and they'll stop.

Physical abuse = Everyone gets a whack or two from their mom or dad when they're really bad. Remember to honor and obey your parents, and think about what you did wrong when they do hit you.

And sometimes the people who say these things really DID go through things that would have been much better if better addressed, but options weren't available to them at the time, and/or other people told them these nasty false things back then and they believed it. They think "If I have/had this problem and I'm still alive without help, other people with this problem don't need help either." So many people out there with MDD, for example, are told they're depressed because they want to be sad, they want an excuse to be lazy, they're just after attention, etc. Yes, because insomnia and constant hopelessness are so very fun, every depressed person decides to make their glial cells die off, social withdrawal and apathy are great ways to get attention, people choose depression because they want their hippocampus to shrink and their blood CRF skyrocket... Yet I've talked to so many people who ended up believing these things that they blame themselves for their depression, and think of other depressed people (who seek medical treatment) as "weak," "losers," etc. This is a complex subject but I hope you get the idea.

These people really mean well and honestly believe themselves, so I hope you don't feel too bad when you hear these things. And I hope you don't fall for it. If you think something will help you, and you make an informed rational decision to try it, you don't have to change your mind just because someone else didn't need it, or someone else didn't think they need it, or it didn't work for someone else who tried it.



Is this a GP/PCP/whatever they're called where you live? Can you ask for a referral to a (good) psychiatrist? Even if the first one you see is no better, hopefully there's a good doctor somewhere nearby who will understand and help you.

Again, I believe in the patient's right to choose, and by that I mean an informed decision, including risks, possible/probable benefits, possible/probable drawbacks, potential alternatives, etc.

http://psycheducation.org/anxiety/socialphobia.htm has a good point. If you have any bipolar tendencies, I would avoid "traditional" antidepressants such as SSRIs, and go for behavior therapy, anticonvulsants/mood stabilizers, benzos, exercise, or other treatments. (Remember I'm a lay person giving my personal opinion for what *I* would do for *my* body given my current level of knowledge, so don't take this as medical advice for *you*. DO inform any doctor who wants to give you paroxetine or something when you might be bipolar though, I feel confident saying that much.) There are many options out there. The site that page recommends has a page of medications used for social anxiety, and pages for other approaches, if you're interested. I would read up on each medication you're considering (at minimum, the PI sheet, also http://crazymeds.us/ can be good too but also written by a lay person and not always accurate) before deciding on it. And if you take anything else (including dietary supplements, "herbal" remedies, and over-the-counter drugs like aspirin), I would inform a good doctor of this so they can help you track interactions. It always helps to do your own homework as well. Both pharmacodynamic and pharmacokinetic interactions can kill you.

Oh and my apologies, it sounds like "keystonelight needs a benzo to pass the class."



A volcano? Did I do something bad?



It's a pretty complex subject but I don't think this should deter people from using meds, just caution them into monitoring themselves and perhaps getting family/friends/doctors to help monitor too. If someone starts showing signs of unhealthy use, then I think it's most logical and humane to keep them on it, make sure they're staying at a healthy dose, and address the underlying problem that is showing one symptom (tendency to abuse drugs).

My stance is that no drug is inherently addictive, any more than hugs, chatting, jogging, etc are. Rather, many problems that are not acknowledged as problems result in seeking assistance for coping, which can eventually become harmful (eg constant attention-seeking and approval from peers, compulsive dangerous injury-causing jogging, drug abuse). http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-ratpark.html is a great introduction to Rat Park and its implications. I highly recommend it. Wikipedia also has an article on Rat Park.

you can purchase those from pharmaoffshore.com they are listed on drugbuyers as well... see their leads first..TC

i am sorry if i am taking this the wrong way but dont judge what is wrong with me ptsd just dont think about it live in my shoes for month and we will see how your plan works for you then i have several of the problems you named and been in thearpy for 20 years and if i had followed any of the advice i read from you i might not have made it this far so [censored] off

sorry mods but his post made me so mad i am about to pop

Lettuce was giving examples of the sort of stuff he sees and hears; they weren't his opinions and he actually disagreed with them, going on to say that the patient should have a choice in their treatment.

Only time I took a benzo in college for speaking I fell asleep before my turn. Head back, mouth open. Gave an excuse about being on a new med. Quite the embarrassment. But when I did finally get up there without meds I just basically owned it and made everyone listen. It was like I wasn't myself. Didn't know I had it in me. I do have SAD and am dependent on Paxil now which doesn't do much for it but it's more of fear going into situations. I get all the physical symptoms of anxiety but just force myself. Benzos are nice once in awhile but I'm also on Propanolol (sp) which is a beta blocker that seems to help. Also I take a few supplements for relaxation.

I wanted to respond to a few things here. Firstly, please don't try drugs for the first time like that, since you never know how it will affect you. In fact I usually have at least one friend near me for a few hours when I take a new med, inform them of what I'm doing and what the likely SEs are and what are symptoms of needing to drag me to the ER (e.g. anaphylactic shock, SJS/TEN), and make sure I'm alright. I recommend this for everyone, for every new drug they try, because chances of something unexpected happening are highest within the first few hours. (Just because your first time on a drug is good, however, doesn't mean that won't change at a later time; the risk is just lower.) Life-threatening reactions may be rare but don't let it happen to you. Just embarassing reactions like falling asleep are still good to know about before you head to class (Of course, falling asleep could be dangerous in other situations, like if you're about to drive a car.)


I think most/all people are capable of the dissociative state I think you're referring to, when your brain goes on "autopilot." This happens to people in major crises, such as a large building set on fire--they might feel no fear, calmly look for fire exits, assess the rate at which the fire is spreading, calculate how much time they have to help others, search for and herd out the panicking people, etc. (And then when it's over, they may or may not get delayed panic, sweat, tremor, etc.) This is normal, non-pathological dissociation.

But dissociation varies from person to person when it is triggered, what triggers it, how reliably it happens in response to certain triggers (eg all the time, half the time, rarely), what learning is accomplished in this state, how adaptive it is, and so on.


I'm glad you seem able to deal with your SAD. Is the paroxetine used for something other than SAD, or is it of zero help and you're just afraid of withdrawal?

Some people have more anxiety about going into certain situations than they have of being in the situations themselves, you're right about that. Some people have a lot of anxiety about going into the situations, and also have a lot of anxiety being in the situations. Some people don't learn a whole lot of anticipatory anxiety, but they have a lot of anxiety once they're in the situations. It varies from person to person and the type of anxiety.


Just out of curiosity, do any of these contain valerian, Virginian skullcap, and/or kava? Those are GABA A receptor ligands, just like benzos, alcohol, and barbituates. I wish these "herbal" drugs were FDA regulated so you have a better assurance that what's on the label is actually what's in the bottle. They could be helpful to a lot of people.


Yes, thank you. I know my posts can get so long some people can't be bothered to read it all :P


Sometimes when I hear this stuff, "made me so mad i am about to pop" describes me too! I'm no stranger to some of the things on the list either, but what I was even more concerned about was how my friends (with different problems) were treated. I made it a point to research some of these problems that I don't have, so I could understand my friends better, share ideas, and educate other people when they would say stupid things like the examples on my list.

Something else to bear in mind when delivering lectures or publicly speaking for whatever reason, is not to make too many notes. The more you read from your notes, the more you will have to. It is better, generally, to make bullet points so that you have to use your brain to answer questions fired at you rather than try to seek an answer from notes.

Obviously, this varies from person to person. Some prefer to make minimal notes; some prefer more. But from experience, I find it better to go in just with a few points, and force my brain to work.

Lettuce makes a good point about the anticipation of an event causing more anxiety than the event itself in some cases. Apart from reminding yourself that worrying makes no difference to the outcome, and as long as you're prepared, keeping yourself busy right up to the point of performance does help. Playing sport, for example, can benefit the mind and body in such a way that anxiety is relieved to quite an extent in a lot of cases. It might also leave some endorphins lying around for you by the time you perform, and leave various other vital parameters in top condition.

Regarding exercise, there's an interesting book on it. It sounds stupid, but a lot (even if not all) the author's opinions are backed by references to specific studies. I haven't read the whole thing, but I did read a bit before I returned it to the library, and it might be worth checking out. "Conquering Depression and Anxiety Through Exercise" by Keith Joshsgard. To sum it up, exercise can improve both state and trait anxiety, and the mechanisms include--but go way beyond--simple endorphins.

Here's a relatively short page on exercise and its effects on the brain, but more specific to mood disorders (mentions how it's been as effective as Zoloft in one study): Exercise and Mood: not the usual rap (It really isn't the usual rap!)

I can say from experience that I felt fantastic when I was at the peak of my physical fitness, and pretty miserable when unable to exercise. This has happened so many times to me that coincidence can safely be ruled out.

There is the sense of achievement when you have set a personal best. There is the competitiveness, whether it's against yourself or an opponent, which is healthy and applies to real life all too often. There is teamwork and a sense or worth in team sports.

There is the change in the way you look, and are able to physically do things you couldn't before, or things that others can't.

You guys are really great! I do not have a speech for a few weeks so i have much time to prepare. I just wanted to thank each of you on your discussion, it really brings comfort that I am not the only one who understand what I am going through. I have always had trouble with anxiety in the class room, whether it be up in front or just sitting in the class. Most of this has subsided through my years of college, but i still have this one thing to conquer.

I have a feeling it all stems from the way a particular teacher treated me in 1st grade. when i first told my mom about my anxiety in class she told me how my teacher ridiculed me in front of class every time i read aloud when i was in first grade, i was not a great reader and she was a complete [censored]. My mom went to the principle and made a whole ordeal. This is one of the reasons why my family moved from california to where i live currently.

I really think a lot of these things have to do with childhood experience.

But once again, thank you for all of your discussion, and i welcome any more input.

I think your doctor is trying to give you very good advice regarding the use of benzodiazepine meds to deal with situational anxiety about your college classes and "public" speaking.
You have hopefully a long life in front of you and using these drugs now to confront situations that will very likely continue to be a part of your adult real world experiences can be a very slippery slope.
It might not seem possible to you currently but using addictive benzos "occasionally" somehow easily becomes "weekly" and "nightly" and on and on.
These medications were developed to address serious, debilitating anxiety and panic disorders. Their use has, however, devolved into often problematic band-aids for all sorts of perceived conditions that actually should be dealt with on a causal level rather than just continuing to mask the symptoms.
If I were you, I'd listen to your doctor.