Hi Grace..I am glad that NA/AA works for you, but it is not the end all of ways to get clean. Not everyone who isn't in a 12 step program goes to prison or dies. I myself tried NA for 12 long miserable years. I agree for a lot of people it is a miracle program, but it didn't help me, in fact it hurt me a lot more than it helped..This is only for me.. I used Methadone Maintenance and counseling and that is what works for me..Some people go to church and some people just quit.. From what I have experienced in the 12 step programs is that it is a lot different for opiate addicts than say a person addicted to cocaine. I don't know why, but when I started NA in 1983, there were 12 of us, there is only 1 person left who is still in the program. Maybe it is because opiates are a medication that everyone needs in sometime in their life whether it be for surgery, an accident or just plain chronic pain, but once we get clean, and have to take opiates again, (and trust me, we all will need them at one point) our bodies don't know the difference between a medication and a drug. What got me back on heroin was a prescription for 10 vicodin for an abbsessed tooth..I was off and running within a week. Everyone of my friends who had clean time and had to use opiates for whatever reason started using drugs again.. One woman had a broken back, one had cancer, see, the reasons go on and on....

Hottie

Yeah, now that I look back upon what I've written I can see the error of my ways. I seriously don't know what got into me to post such amazing idiocy.

Woodrow, you are going through something very natural for an opiate addict, it is called PAWS. It will never totally go away, but it gets easier and better with time. Now that your body doesn't need the opiates anymore, your brain is still telling you that you do..Keep yourself busy..Remember when you quit taking opiates, it was like you lost your best friend, your lover, your mom..It was a part of you, and you are mourning..It is like something inside of you died. It is normal. Don't try to figure it out, just go along with it, and if you feel like using, DON"T..... You haven't triggered anyone because we all feel the same way you do, and anyone who says they don't is either not really an addict or he/she is lying. It was as great as you remember it, so what you have to do is run down everything that will happen if you pick up that pill. What will your life be like a year from now..And never ever say "I can never use again" Just say "I am not going to have to use today"

Hottie

PAWS hits me for 2 weeks and then seem to go away. Then pops up. It is OK. Find a diversion.

It's ok, if you have never been an addict, you just have no idea what it is like to be in our skin. It's not an error, it is ignorance. You just never learned about opiate addiction, and you know what you said was the wrong thing to say, so you didn't say it with any malice.. There is a wealth of information on the web about opiates,, and if you read a little you will be amazed at what you find out.....

Hottie

Ooohhee! That is some thick sarcasm, but you're statement about recreational opiate or narcotic users was dead on and Hottie misunderstood you, took that misunderstanding and ran with it. If you're taking opioid pain meds for recreational purposes, you ARE misusing them, likely abusing them and thus are an addict.

My personal experience with opioid medications began with being on the receiving end of a drunk chick, driving a black pick-up truck, without her lights on at around 10pm on Good Friday 1 month shy of my 18th B-day. I became an addict at 25 after re-injuring the damage caused by that night and being placed on an unending stream of powerful opioid medications. Before I knew it I was dependent and an addict, all the while, taking less than the Dr. Rx'ed!

This story serves no purpose other than to show how Hottie's story, in no way, was an understandable reaction to your other post.

I'm sure a lot of people would call me an addict since I take pretty powerful narcotic pain medication around the clock.

Fentanyl, dilaudid, hydrocodone, Oxycodone etc etc. I'm a cancer patient and they try to help me if they can.

I feel pretty good, they now let me change the patches every two days and I can take up to two patches or 200 mcg.

Hi..I remember the evening very well. I was at a friends house, and I had just picked up a prescription, and for the first time, I felt different. I didn't say to myself "should I take a pill now or wait" I said to myself, "If I don't take this pill I am going to be sick" I don't remember how old I was, but I remember the friends I was with, the house I was at, I had just crossed that line where it was no longer a party, from that night on my addiction was a full time job....The party was finally over....

Hottie

What form of cancer is it, and what's the prognosis? Are you undergoing chemo or radiotherapy? I hope you don't mind the questions; your posts are very informative and we can all learn a thing or two from each other.

I don't have it in me to type a lot right now. I'm sorry. I'll answer the question though, just not right now.

Are you on chemo or radiation?

Oxy80- how long ago were you diagnosed?

I hope you're going to be OK. When were you diagnosed and is there a family history?

Yes, you get some well-deserved rest and get back to us when you're feeling up to it.

When I read this post, it did send me back to that warm and fuzzy place. (Thanks a lot!...jk) I know the feeling you are describing. I think anyone addicted to opiates knows this feeling. I also want you to remember that this feeling only lasts when the opiate "peaks" for about 30 minutes and then subsides. You would still feel good after the "warm and secure" peak, but not as good as it felt when the medicine hit you at first. I think that is what makes addicts take more and more through out the day. We are chasing that 30 minute euphoric high we got on the first "high" of the day. Unfortunately, it usually doesn't happen. So, we take more and more....just trying to get to that place again. My point is, when you are really having this "euphoric recall" (great description!), try to remember that the high you are longing for would only last a short time, causing you to go into a cycle of taking more and more pills. Sometimes when I am having this euphoric recall, I try to remember this cycle. When I realize that the 30 minute high would lead to 15 more pills through out the day, sometimes it helps me. I occupy myself for 30 minutes and then think, well if I would have taken that pill, the best part would be over by now and I would be chasing back a few more pills trying to get there again. This of course is my experience only. It could be different for others. I am in know way saying this is how this drug affects everyone. If anything, I just wanted to try and comfort you and help you get through these euphoric recalls that you are having. I really don't know if they will ever go away. To me, it is what addiction is all about!

Cancer type: Hodgkin Lymphoma

Past treatments: Total-Body Irradiation

current treatment: Rest

Prognosis is unknown so far, I'll know more from my next blood test I hope.


Sorry I went Off Topic...

Ok, Since I just used almost an hour of my life reading this whole thread. How is the original poster doing. I wanna hear from watson.

So what's causing all the severe pain? The lymph nodes usually swell painlessly, or is there another disease or injury present?

Hope you got some good rest yesterday, and it's very brave of you to discuss your condition with others, but also very beneficial.

If hydrocodone works for you, will they not prescribe small amounts to be taken regularly? It's the closest thing to MR hydrocodone that can be achieved.

Sorry to just jump in.
Hodgkin Lymphoma can cause pain especially if the body becomes ridden with toxins from innability to regulate and cleanse properly.

The worse thing is most meds,especially immune suppressants can make you feel sicker over time(possibly also more pain).

I do know what you are saying though Nephro, especially if hasn't been around too long.

FYI nephro, I have too many ailments that I have currently that I never should have brought up. Mostly, I don't want to talk about my problems and take threads off topic.

I do have more the just cancer, for one thing I have an inoperable spinal problems along with cancer and forward neck syndrome.

I also have 8 herniated and bulged discs from an accident. Some of which are in my neck locking it into a straight ahead position.

I'm not going to name every thing wrong with me, but one thing is, I am not over medicated for all I have wrong with me. I really never wanted to talk about this all.

I go back to my PCP who is acting as my PM tomorrow. I want to change my fent back to oxycontin and my diluadid to roxycodone.

Edited to add: I also have a failed lamenectomy!!

Thanks for the info. I wasn't trying to be nosey, and I'm sure you need every pain med you get. I'm just concerned for your well-being, and the info you provide which is so useful to others with chronic pain.

Anything you do wish to say about your pain is of great benefit to those who suffer similarly, and are under-treated by their doctor.

I mentioned about scripting you hydrocodone - with it being the title of the thread and all - because it appears to work so well for so many and yet there is no modified-release preparation, so I wondered if you may consider trying to get 10/325 pills to take up to 12 times a day according to the maximum recommended APAP intake. Of course, long-term, it would be prudent to take less in terms of APAP.

I wondered if you could be prescribed some pure hydrocodone without the APAP? If it works for you, even if it Sch 2, it's no higher scheduled than the meds you're on now. Failing that, a compounded preparation with much-reduced APAP content. Even using both hydro/APAP and hydro/ibuprofen may be a way round it.

I sincerely hope that you can return to opioids that work better for you than the ones you're on now.

Hi cashphan,
Your post was really sweet and helped me enormously in thinking about how I struggle with the desire for the euphoria and that warm, fuzzy, "everything is going to be ok" feeling I get from opiates. You are so right when you say the feeling only lasts for 30min. max, sometimes less sometimes a bit more. And, you know what, when I can feel it start to leave, I almost go into a panic or on the other hand a rage with extreme irritability that the "feeling" is going away and if I take more at that moment, it still won't bring me back to that wonderful place. Anyway, I just wanted to tell you that thinking about it in the way you described it really, really made sense and helped me to feel better about letting the hydro go forever. Sometimes I think the anticipation of an event or an experience is better than the actual experience...and sometimes the memory of it is better than the real thing, too. Good points to keep in mind and it's also the way our disease tricks us into thinking we're really suffering without it rather than the reality of suffering BECAUSE of it (our drug). Thanks again!

woodrow

Yes, that's right. Our minds will "trick us" into thinking that we need it. That is the addiction talking! It is helpful to say, No, I am not going to give in and life is so much better without that medication. I have a hell of a lot more money, I am healthier, and have freedom back again and can go anywhere and do whatever I want, not having to worry about having the medication to get through it!!!

How are you doing Woodrow? You seem to be doing well and have it under control? It is hard. Like I said, it's the hardest thing I have done. Getting off of the painkillers! But it's just as rewarding as my other accomplishments. And the major battle is staying off of them. At first anyway. Five years from now, it will seem like a distant memory and you will no longer be labled as an "addict". Seriously! Just remember, that you can NEVER take an opiate ever again for the rest of your life and make cautious choices in regard to other substances that are potentially addictive and you will be fine. It's different from an alcholic or say a "coke head". This is what two opinions from addiction specialists have told me.

Keep up the great work!! And Watson, we want to know how you are doing.

The only problem with that Nephro is that 12x/day is well over the limit of safety intake. Even short term, say a week, can actually cause liver failure. While the FDA recommends no more then 4grams/day, the actual safest max is 325mg Apap 4x/day. But yeah, I agree, O80 is on way too much medication and is not only getting all of that from a PM doc, but is obtaining more on here. I would hate to feel how he feels when he is not on all of that!! Not to mention, all the natural disasters occuring this generation. And he is in Florida!!! Hurricane season! What if his PM doc's office got blown away/recked, etc...and he had no way of obtaining his refills? Good luck at an ER! I just couldn't imagine.

What did these two addiction specialists tell you about the differences among opiate addiction, alcoholism and "coke heads" regarding long-term substance abuse recovery?

That's interesting, because there was a discussion about this a while ago, and I remember one source quoting a long-term max of 1600mg/day, which is close to your figure. Trouble is, I cannot remember or find the source I saw anywhere.

They give 4g/day for virtually infinity on repeat prescriptions in the UK, and with the drug available only in 500mg pills from any shop who cares to sell them, there is no limit imposed whatsoever in terms of how long to take them. All they have done is reduce OTC packs to 32 pills, not that all pharmacists enforce this.

What we need is data to show us, and doctors in general, just how harmful 4g of APAP is on the liver on a long-term basis.

I really can"t understand why in the USA opiates are prescribed for nearly everything that calls for pain relief. Tooth surgery for instance , had three teeth pulled , plus some root canal treatment (all due to my addiction to heroin)was told to go home and take a couple of ibuprofen which took away the pain in twenty mins.

Oxy80"S illness (ess) do call for some heavy duty opiate pain relief but i do believe the powers that be are too quick to dish out opiates without exploring other meds to give for relief . The amount of stories i"ve seen on some boards of people becoming addicted to opiates , usually start with some doctor/dentist giving them vics or percs , then some months down the line start abusing usually graduating to street heroin , oxycontin etc . I don"t think, my opinion, subutex should be given for depressive illnesess because one day it will turn on you and the illness will raise it"s ugly head only 10x worse. Subutex for me was a life saver but was used as a tool to get me off heroin . I was over prescribed the subs , only taken what i needed to take the edge off my withdrawels, which left me with a boat load sitting in the back of my safe. Sorry , this was off topic i know , but come on , stop introducing people to opiates if less potent pain relief will suffice. I hope you make a recovery oxy80 , you are in my prayers.

Don't worry, we may soon have a Health Care system in the US that will cut down on the amount of pain pills in circulation.

I think it's going to cut a lot of everything in circulation, people most of all. Soylent Green anyone? The US is an instant gratification society. We expect a certain level of care and pain meds, for pain are part of that level. Ibuprofen works perfectly well at reducing tooth pain but 2, 10/325 Norco's kill the pain completely and since life is so darn painful give me the total relief, from reality please.

Martin, the first addiction specialist I saw while in treatment (the initial visit), asked me a question. He said, "If this whole table had every kind of drug there was, including alcohol, which drug would you pick?" My response was, "Hydro". He said, "Is that it?" I said, "yes". He then added, "are you sure you wouldn't pick another drug? And no Alcohol?" I said, "No, I am sure" He then proceeded to tell me that this is very common with opiate addicts. We tend to stick with our opiates and at times throw in aother Rx with it, but do not fall into the "polysubstance" label which long term, faces many obstacles later on. Finding recovery more difficult. Lastly, he said "Don't worry after a couple of years, you will no longer be labled as an addict". Where he deducted this from, I don't know. I do not have an MD education, books, or experience that this doctor has had for over 30 years, and he admitted that he to, is a former addict. Now the second addiction specialist--MD, who worked opposite days of him, was the other one I saw while there. So out of curiosity, I asked him how would I differ from an alcoholic or someone who abused cocaine? And what is the success rate for abstinence thereafter. He then told me, that for one, accessiblility obviously is far easier for an alcoholic as it is in every store even where you go to pick up milk, it is right next to it. And if you have the ability and basically the balls to buy coke on the streets, then there is something in you that differs from others. I said to him that I would rather suffer then go to that extreme, buying on the streets, nor would I even know how or who to buy from. He said "that's right". Following, "If you can get past the cravings and that strong desire to want to use them, by 2-3 years, you will not want to ever ingest one again. This part I don't remember exactly how he worded it, but he said that PAWS can last up to a year and so can the desire to want to take the pills. This is why people tend to relapse on them within 7-9 months. He said within that time frame is most common. And unfortunately was the time frame for me!!! And after two years of abstinence, you would be good to go. That is absolutely NOT TAKING a single opiate pill. "By two years you do not have the desire, paws, cravings, and you have instilled the memory of what happened when I took them and how hard it was to get off of them and stay off of them". He added, "now with alcoholics, they need a lifetime support system because that desire to want to drink is always there and seeing the alcohol everywhere causes a trigger making it harder to obstain".

Sorry it was kind of long, but you had asked, so I told you. And hopefully others can benefit from the 20,000. I paid for treatment. Which really is bad that I started taking the medication again, because I was experiencing a lot of pain. Now that I look back, I think it was the addiction talking as well as discomfort. And I didn't think twice about taking them. So what I have learned from what the doctors told me and from my screw up is, that it is imperative to have a support system and maybe attend meetings for the first year as much as possible and maybe a few the following year, until I get past that two year mark. Now if I was an alcoholic as well, then based on deductive reasoning, I would have to attend AA for as long as I lived and have the support as well. Due to the fact that I am not, I will be okay after a couple of years, hence, no longer labled as a drug addict. Hopefully I clarified this. I don't usually have the time to write a lot of get into specifics, that is why I write based on my experience professionally and personally. I basically give the info and hope that the person if they are interested, would research it more.

Those who have "relapsed" or "started up again", out of curiosity, how long were you "sober" or "abstinent" from the pain meds? And when did you start taking them again? I am interested to see. For me, it was nine months. And just to let you know, I successfully got off of them without taking drug replacement therapy. It was really hard the first week, okay the second week, and by the third week, I was fine and by two and a half months felt 100%. Oh and that first Doc, Dr. Zimmerman had told me that "my brain would be 50% better the first month and 100% better by the third month", and he was right!! So I think while short term you will face discomfort, it is worth it in the end. And I am not knocking Sub for those of you it has helped, but I just don't get why it is taken for so long and having to face detox with that as well. When I went for treatment, and at the facility I work at, it is only given for a week and that is it--a friendly FYI. I am glad it has helped you, woodrow, and you do seem better and the others who take it as well. Hope for all of you facing this difficult challenge, that you are doing well. Have a good weekend!!