I've heard that studies are being done to see how effective it is as apparently some patients are finding it very effective for their depression....kind of goes back to me asking my psych doc/addiction med specialist why can't we just take opiates for depression since Hydrocodone is the best antidepressant I've found....up until a certain point of course. He said there are many studies and research has been going on since the 1950's regarding the use of opiates and how effective they are treating chronic depression BUT, and it's a big BUT, the problems of tolerance and dependence have never been able to be addressed or solved. Perhaps one day....

woodrow

I actually had the reverse effect with Sub. It started off O-kay, but by month three I felt I was becoming more depressed by the day. I also think my dose my have been too high at that point, though, but I just felt that if I didn't get off the sub that I would end up suicidal. My experience only, though. Most people that I have talked to did not have the side effects I had while on sub.

Does it seem to help you for that purpose?

Actually, no it doesn't. It doesn't affect my mood anything like hydro did, which seemed like the answer to my prayers for physical pain plus the pain of major depression. No actually I'm on 16mg and feel pretty down although I also take 225mg of Effexor plus the mood stabilizer Lamictal for depression. I've been on the sub for 2.5 months now. I still have cravings, mostly psychological, anxiety is ok but my depression is worsening I think. I'm having some trouble getting out of bed in the am and that's not a good sign for me....

woodrow

well actually woodrow you are right. Any opiate works wonders for depression/anxiety AT FIRST. BUT THEN eventually kills the endorphans we make naturally, even those with limited amounts due to Depression, and it then gets worse. And of course we know the cycle and what happens. So NO...An antidepressant would be recommended without the recourse of what happens with pain medication.

Buprenorphine has some side-effects that can be different to those of other opioids, including depersonalisation, psychosis, fatigue, agitation, restlessness, and dysphoria (though some people experience dysphoria with other opioids).

Holy [censored]!!! Wow is all I can say! I didn't know that. I guess I could have read the side effects and possible adverse reactions, but didn't because I haven't taken it. That is pretty bad. When I first went to treatment, the first day they gave me a dose of Suboxone. I didn't ask what it was. I felt pretty bad and they gave me two small pills and said it would help. THAT WAS THE ONLY TIME I TOOK IT!!! Well, about three hours later, I felt like I had done coke or speed and felt like I was going out of my mind and couldn't take it. I was voilently vomitting for 16 hours straight as well. I asked another patient if that happened to him as well and he said the same thing. He said he told the doctor he would prefer the wean down method from Oxy over the course of six days instead. When it was time for my next dose, I said to the nurse, absolutely not. I said, I do not want anything!! That stuff made me feel A LOT worse!! And even if those side effects were temporary, I knew that something wasn't right. Other patients chose to do the Sub and were off of it within six to seven days. I simply took it the first day and by the end of the second day, when it finally wore off, had felt a lot better. And chose only to take Ibuprofen and Immodium PRN during the rest of the six days. That is why I think it is better to do comfort measures and OTC supplements while coming off of any kind of pain pill. I didn't need Clonidine because while my BP was a little high, it was still okay. That is meant for someone who normally runs high and when they D/C the pain pills, it goes through the roof along with the anxiety. That person would benefit from it. I just tell people to remember it is only short term discomfort and if you can tough it out for a week or two, you will be so glad you did!!

Woodrow,

This is what started happening to me, as well. I felt really good the first month or two. The pain was helped by the sub. and I felt pretty normal and very releived to be off the daily grind of trying to keep my prescription for hydro. I did miss the ephoria, like you said. But in all actuality, I had not felt that ephoria in a long time, anyway. My Dr. told me that that is why he feels so many people have issues w/ opiates is that most of these same chronic pain people also suffer from depression and the opiates take that depression away for a time and we are always searching for that place where the depression didn't get to us. The antidepressants do not act in the same way.

The sub took a toll on me quick. I felt very depressed, lethargic to the point of falling asleep while on the treadmill, just overall not caring much. To top it off, the PAWS were off the charts. My Dr. thought I was crazy, though. Anyway, long story short, I got off the sub. It was a heck of a long journey and I am still on it, but at least I am in a better place now. I am in a great deal of pain and may have to do something again, soon. I will try anything that I can other than opiates this time around.

My heart goes out to you, Woodrow. Just keep trucking through and there will be a bright side soon. Each day brings you a step closer. My prayers are with you.

BryansFan,
Thank you SO much for your kindness and support....you don't know how much I need it these days. Today is my 10th week on the suboxone & when I saw my doc last Thursday I told him that I was feeling more down than usual. We discussed lifestyle stuff, ie. what am I doing to replace the "high" I got from the hydro...well, not much, just trying to survive day to day. There really is nothing I've ever done that comes close to replacing that euphoria, but you're absolutely right, it only lasts for a time and at the end, I'm just taking it not to get sick. So, I need to learn new ways to feel good, and happy and healthy. But, I also feel apathetic, unmotivated, fatigued like you mentioned. I can't tell you how many times I've been working at my computer and my head nods and the words go all blurry and I can hardly stay awake!
Anyhow, my doc put my on an extra 75mg of Effexor to see if that might bump me up just a bit. I do know the PAWS is having an effect on my mood, energy level, memory, etc. Last time I didn't feel back to normal for at least 18 months, and that was with NO suboxone. I am fearful to go off the suboxone, not because of withdrawls, because I feel SO unstable that I think, no I KNOW, I would go straight back to the hydro as I have ways of getting it and have already fantasized about that scenario. I have to keep struggling through this process and hope that day by day it gets a bit easier to cope with. Thanks to all of you here, it has helped tremendously being able to share my thoughts, feelings, fears, etc. If I didn't have you guys, I'm sure I'd be off and running again already.

Take care,
woodrow

It is so hard to find anything to replace that feeling and so far I have not found it yet. One thing that has helped me tremendously with the fatigue is exercise. Now, mind you, I am overweight and not in great shape, so that word was a four letter one in my book, but it does help. I only do what I can on the treadmill or outside, but I have noticed that the more active I am, the better I feel. I remember when I was at my "lowest", I could only walk about 5 minutes before wanting to just die, but now I can do an hour (with an IPOD watching movies!) It doesn't help my pain much, but the doc said it wouldn't hurt me, either!

One thing that I did that was also so helpful was to take 10 minutes every night to "reflect". I kept a short diary and I would try really hard to think of anything good that happened that day. I would think of any amount of time that I felt good or normal. It helped me keep going because I could physically see that it was working and I was making progress, albeit very slow progess. I would be thankful for 5 more minutes a day that I felt good.

Stay on Sub for how long you need or what works for you. There is no amount of time that someone can say is right for you. YOu know yourself better than anyone and only you can decide what is right. Just keep patting yourself on the back for all the positive changes you are making and don't be hard on yourself. Another little thing I did was treated it like I had an illness. If I had the flu I would feel awful, too, so I told myself that it was just another flu and eventually it would pass. My sound stupid to some, but it worked on me! I figure anything that works is a good thing!

Hang in there and be kind to you. This board has been a tremendous help to me. Know that we care and want success for you, too. Take care!

Those are all good suggestions, but I don't think anything takes the place of a real recovery program, with the support of others who've learned how to live without drugs. Opioid addiction has the highest relapse rate of any drug. With the level of cravings woodrow is describing, along with access to hydro, his chance of relapse is about 99.9%.

Getting off hydro is not like trying to stop chewing your fingernails. Giving up the most powerful addiction on the planet requires putting something very significant in itīs place, and changing everything about how you live youīre life.

I believe the idea that you can just start taking a different pill, and hope each day gets a little bit better...somehow...is a prescription for disaster. I really wish it was that easy. It would have saved me a lot of misery.

Woodrow, Please do not read some of these responses and feel like there is no hope, and give up. It was not the kindest thing to do when a poster said that there was a 99.9% chance of you relapsing. As true as it may or may not be, it was not necassary. Sometimes we are so fragile while fighting this battle, that a statement like that would be just the thing to send someone over the edge.
As well meaning as it may be, people who focus on the negatives, and not offer some positive support are usually doing more harm than good.
As BryansFan put it: You know You. Do what is right for you, and disregard the naysayers, as they are usually the very people that secretly hope for your failure. If for no other reason than to be able to say, "I told you so".
Stay strong, and remember there are posters here that genuinely care for your welfare, and wish you the best.

The most loving thing you can do for another addict is to tell them the truth. If you think telling an opioid addict just to follow their instincts is compassionate, then we simply disagree. An addicts first instinct is to use, that's why you need the wisdom of other people who know how to get up in the morning without taking drugs.

All I was trying to get across is that going it alone is almost never successful. Iīd rather see an addict get their life back than worry about hurting their feelings.

I'll just add an observation since I have been following Woodrow's experience.
The first thing visable is your romantic love affair with the euphoria and your stunted memories about how great you felt when you were taking opiates. Spending time thinking about the various means you have at your finger tips to get some more "hydro" in a blink has to stop.
You are taking a very strong opioid which is obviously not providing an adequate replacement for your past good feelings from drugs. Your experience is very atypical so far assuming you are on a appropriate dose of Suboxone. There is really no way you should be experiencing the level of post-acute withdrawal syndrome that you are describing. You should not have even gone through a period of acute withdrawal yet.
I'm surprised your doctor didn't increase the dose of Suboxone before the AD but maybe there is a valid reason why he didn't.
I will tell you this. The very few patients I have observed who complained often with explanations that the Suboxone was not working and that their withdrawals were devastating were all ultimately determined to be misdiagnosed as people who were sincerely committed to substance abuse recovery.
They were either forced onto replacement treatment by their loved ones or drug court or they reached the conclusion on their own that just missed the high too much to stop. "Sub regret" is the recovery term. Happens with methadone also.
So, I think you should really have a serious self-examination about your status and reach out honestly to those around you to get your act off of false-memory lane. It is extremely difficult to do any of this alone. That is where support groups can play an important role. Internalizing and feeling sorry for yourself is a dead end road and it sounds like you might be currently traveling down it.
If you are on an adequate dose of Suboxone and truthfully dedicated to your recovery, something is missing from the equation that I am reading from you. What do you think it could be?

I think thatīs why good sub doctors always insist on counselling, peer support, etc. to go along with the medication, as the sub alone is usually not enough. However, real commitment to recovery is a different matter.

Almost everyone Iīve known who hasnīt really made that commitment talks about their drug of choice the same way, like a lost lover or best friend. It shows that the addiction is still calling the shots. In recovery groups they describe it as wanting to want to quit, rather than wanting to quit.

None of this is meant as a judgement. I know it because I've been there myself. I would have never recognized it if others hadn't pointed it out to me. The disease is very cunning. I'm grateful that their love for me was greater than their fear of pissing me off. Good luck to woodrow and anyone else currently fighting the 300 pound gorilla.

I challenge anyone who has battled addiction to be honest and tell me they have not had the exact same thoughts that Woodrow is describing. If you say you haven't then perhaps you have been mis-diagnosed and were not addicts in the true sense of the definition, but perhaps just dependant following years of use.

I have been clean over 2 years, and I mean clean from Sub, and to this day I wonder what it would feel like to take just 1 hydro. I choose to find some constructive way to handle those thoughts, and perhaps the way Woodrow handles his/hers is to come here and pour out his/her true feelings.
I do however, have to say that it is a good question from Martin regarding the dosage of Sub. If Woodrow is experiencing any degree of w/d or even PAWS at this point, s/he is most likely not on a dose strong enough for him.

There is a time and place for "tough love" but I don't think that strangers on a message board are the most appropriate people to take care of that. On the other hand, there is also a time for compassion and listening, and from the last sentence of the last post from Woodrow, that is what it appeared that he/she was asking for. Jut a little encouragement and advice to help them get through the day.

You are correct. I was really talking about the day to day things that I did and not really the overall pictures. Counseling, therapy, N/A....whatever your choice.....is a great and essential thing to do.

There is no right and wrong way to go here. You do have to do what is going to work best for you.

Just as a note......sub truly did not work well with me. I did still experience PAWS. If my dose was taken up, then the Sub would totally knock me out. It was not a committment issue on my part. I did not find sub to be the wonder drug I had hoped it would be (and now know there is no such thing!) and then it was very hard to get off of, also. The side effects were not worth it for me. Of course, I never wanted to feel the way I felt on Sub again, so getting off, while extremly hard emotionally and physically, was the greatest thing for me and I hope that memory will always stay with me. I am only a few months truly off everything and know for certain it will always be a battle.

You've made incredible progress and I salute you for being quick to recognize what was and was not working for you. You serve as a good example for others that if you stay strong you can get there. It couldn't have been easy.

No, not easy by a long shot. Still not easy! I certainly don't consider myself an example, either, but if what I went through will help anyone at all, I am happy to share. It isn't like I made any earth shattering discoveries, but sometimes little ideas can help. People on this board were helpful and supportive during my darkest hours and I would like to be there for anyone that I can.

Yeah I agree with you Golden and to me, it feels like the most powerful addiction in the world but is their any evidence supporting that? If you don't mind, elaborate on that. And you are right about the relapse rate, that is within the first two years.

Golden, I think you said that you have been off of it for 30 days? Correct me if I am wrong. How are you feeling and did you take or are you taking any medication to help alleviate symptoms?? For instance, Seroquel for anxiety/sleep, etc...

I know what you mean Bryan and good for you for your success!! Now stay abstinent so you don't have to go through what you did before:)!!!

Actually, I've been clean for almost 6 weeks. The first 30 days was pretty unpleasant, but it's gotten better ever since. My head is finally clearing, my sleep and energy are pretty good, and the depression has lifted. I used some benzos (not much) to sleep the first 2 weeks as I quit cold turkey, but no meds at all after that. I'm feeling pretty good and very, very grateful to be free of it.

Congrats, Golden! You must have had it awful tough! It is quite an accomplishment to be able to just quit cold turkey. Good luck to you!

Guys & Gals,
Thank you for the interesting, supportive, and even the "in your face" posts. I am just trying to write about my true feelings, not hide them, nor sugar-coat them and I feel as if this is a place I can do that. I'm extremely sensitive, I suffer from mental illnesses that were clearly present before I ever touched a drug or a drink in my life. Perhaps that is why I'm struggling so....it's quite possible that all of the hydro I did messed so much with my brain, endorphins, neurotransmitters & current psychotropic meds, that I'm having a harder time than others....It could be that I need a higher dose of sub than I'm on but 16mg is a pretty good dose.
I wonder if some of the posts might have been different if you guys knew I was a 43 year old college educated woman, hold a great job as a Child Protection Social Worker, mom of a 9 year old girl adopted from China when she was just 1 months old...sometimes we make judgements based on who we think people are on this board. When I read names, I imagine right away that I know it's a guy or a woman, based on what they say and how they say it. Sometimes I might post to someone differently because if I think they're my gender, they may understand better.
Anyway, just an interesting thought as most of you thought I was a guy!
Nope, just a middle aged mom struggling to keep some sanity in my life as it's gone way off track.
I do know what's missing Martind, it's a support group, I haven't liked AA or NA, I have a counselor, I have a Psychiatrist but I have nobody I can talk to face to face that (I know)has ever been on suboxone, is on it, or is in recovery, early recovery at that, that I can spend time with. So, I did a brave thing, I put an anonymous ad in the newspaper which should start tomorrow, made up a new email address and placed an ad that said, "Suboxone Support Group" and talked about "if you have or are using suboxone for an alternate means of recovery and don't feel comfortable in settings where you may feel judged about how you choose to go about your recovery, please contact me and perhaps we can start a group"
Don't know what will happen but it can't hurt right? Maybe it's an answer to my prayers and will bring some folks together that will become my allies and friends to whom I can reach out to for support and vice versa. Just wanted to share that....I'll keep you all posted, if you're interested.

Woodrow

Well i would say subutex does work for depression, for me anyway. It just has those qualities i.e euphoric, enegetic, wellbeing etc, but thats if u also excercise and keep busy. I noticed if u dont do jack shyte while on sub then u get bored shytless lol.... (Mind ma French). It works wonders during the early months but then u also urself have to contribute in making life bearable while on the sub. Now getitng off sub is another a question all together. But like i said my experience with sub for depression is positive. But i really hope the negatives dont weigh the postives as am hearing with many ppl and from my previous exprience, but u can always learn from the past and go one better the next time around i.e tapering, lifestyle, comfort meds maybe etc..........

Woodrow,
Thanks so much for your insightful post. Quite frankly, it doesn't matter to me if you are man, woman or beast, just that you are suffering and need support. Being a productive mom myself though, I understand even better what you are facing. You want to be there and be your best for your child and while dealing with your own overwhelming issues, it is so very hard to do. Just don't be hard on yourself and beat yourself up too much and give yourself the time to heal. For a long time I kept placing so much blame on myself (which don't get me wrong, I do accept the responsibilty for my choices) that all the negative focus was only hendering me. When I cut myself a break, things were a tad easier.

What a great and brave idea for the ad! I hope it gets you results! I would have LOVED to have someone that I could have met with face to face that actually knew the Sub route and could share experiences. I also tried the AA meetings (we do not have a local NA) and it was not what I was needing at the time. While a great program, noone was even close to being in my shoes and I even had some people act like I didn't need to be there since it was only "prescription drugs". Not knocking the program, just wasn't right for me. I have a counselor and she is great, but she has never been there, either. I wish you the greatest of success in finding a group! Please let me know how it turns out!

Keep pushing through! You will come out on the better side of this, it just takes time. My prayers are with you!

While I always try to learn from mistakes, I hope that there is no "next time".

Woodrow, Ask your counselor if there is an "Impaired Professionals" group in your town. They are usually meant for medical professionals, but being in your field, you could probably join in. Also, you may be able to find a Sub support group already in existence. My therapist holds 3 group meetings a week for Sub patients. I still go from time to time, as it keeps me humble to see where I was, where I am, and where I want to be.

Hey melpat & Bryansfan,
Thanks for your comments & support. The ad ran in yesterday's paper, nothing so far but I didn't really expect any quick responses. Melpat, I've already spoken to my psych doc/addiction specialist who knows of no sub support group along with counselors at our two recovery programs and there are no groups in our city....we're small, only 30,000 folks in my town and only 1 inpatient facility and I think a total of 3 docs that are licensed to prescribed suboxone.
We'll see what happens though.
I know the struggle of trying to work full time, care for a child, take care of myself, 2 dogs and a bird, and a huge addiction of which I am only merely in the very early stages of. It's hard, it's lonely, it's depressing but I can't let it all pull me down. I'm excited about what could happen with the "group" if, in fact, it does materialize. It at lease felt like I was doing SOMETHING toward helping my recovery.
BryansFan, I also did both AA and NA and didn't feel welcome and that's just when I was taking my psychotropic meds for depression, PTST and panic disorder. Now that I'm taking suboxone, I don't want to be somewhere that I feel judged for choosing to take a drug to help me in my recovery. We all have the ability to make our own choices and if they are right for one it doesn't mean they are right for all.
We all may share the same shoe size but the shoes don't fit us all the same way or work for us.....corny but that's how I think of it.

Take care,
woodrow

Woodrow,
I haven't seen any posts from you in a while and just wanted to see how you were making it? Are things getting any better for you? I sure hope that as each day passes things get a bit easier! Let us know how you are doing!!!!