I think people that take drugs, particularly narcotics, in a recreational fashion are probably addicts.

I'm just guessing and this is just my opinion based on information gathered from a popular 12 step program.

With that logic, going to have a beer with a friend or a glass of champagne at a wedding makes you an addict?

I find it hard to accept that any recreational or therapeutic use automatically makes you an addict. (Huxley, etc.) Isn't everything in life about balance?

Thanks for the convo! Please let me know if this is not the appropriate place for this convo.

therapeutic is fine, I never said anything about that.

I also am not talking in terms of alcohol. Drink up but you can get addicted to that too.

One glass doesn't make you an addict either, but if you do that long enough, day after day, you'll find out pretty fast what the chips are on the table.

I guess I'm still a bit confused by your definitions. Drinking a drink at a wedding is for recreational purposes. You mentioned that any type of recreational use of a drug means addiction.(I'll omit therapeutic even though I think they are fairly similiar).

So are you saying opiate addiction and alcohol addiction have different defintitions of the word addiction?

I'm sure there was a place at many addicts life where they can look back and say I crossed the line into addiction. Were they doomed from the beginning due to genetics or are these choices that they made?

Drinking for a night out every once in a while is in moderation. As long as your in moderation and you use some medication rx'd by a doctor you should be fine.

I didn't mean to sound so stern.

The line is probably drawn somewhere around the point that a drug starts to have a negative impact on your life. One cricketer I know used to have pints of lager placed at strategic points around the edge of the field, so he could have a swift jar at regular intervals. It also cost him his business.

Another pair of individuals lost their business through cannabis addiction; they had a second-hand furniture shop that was on the up and up. It was right in the middle of the university student area, and landlords were always buying furniture for their student houses from their shop. And since student numbers in that area have continued to rise, it was recession-proof.

They could have been millionaires had they not got begun chronic drug use; in the end they just couldn't be bothered to get off their arses and collect or deliver any furniture!

Regarding opioids that were originally prescribed for pain, if a patient continues to use them despite not being in pain, that would be a significant stage in the development of addiction.

Yeah, I agree, that was a stupid comment on his part. He is either in major denial or playing dumb is what I think. And not to be rude, but I am not going to listen to someone who takes large qty's of Oxy and Benzos, etc.. and thinks that is okay but if someone has a drink or two every now and then has a problem??

That is okay Woodrow, nobody is perfect and it is a work in progress!! I know how hard it is. The important thing is that you went back on the right track and hopefully learned from it. May help writing in a journal, so if you have temptation again, you can use that as a reference. You know, anything that will help. I stop and think and "play the tape" sort of speak. For instance, if I think about taking the pain pills, I think well what happened last time, from start to finish and the consequences that happened. I find that is helpful. Thanks for your honesty in any case. This has happened to all of us. We all have to work on "what causes us to pick up"? If these pills are accessible, we have to think of something that will stop us from even taking one. "play the tape".. And as they say in AA, one is too many and a thousand is never enough!

You have asked the $64 million question.
I'm unsure what you mean by a "psychological" usage of opiates (although I've got a pretty good guess) but, in most cases, the line between medicinal usage and abuse can be defined by behavior.
For instance, you are aware of negative consequences from your use and still continue it even if on some level you don't want to and find it difficult to stop.
Or you find yourself hiding the behavior you're engaged in and realize it is causing harm personally, socially, financially and in your relationships. But you keep doing it anyway.
You are thinking of the opiates constantly, how many are left, where to get more, you'll do just about anything to keep from running out.
A loss of control starts entering into your thought processes and a realization dawns that the substance is exerting control over you rather than the other way around.
Some professionals like to equate addiction with compulsion. I disagree since addiction almost inevitably includes escalation whereas compulsion tends to reach a peak and plateau.
One of the most reliable barometers for an addiction diagnosis can be found in the addict. If they are even halfway honest with you, they will diagnosis themselves after 3 or 4 straightforward questions.
It sounds like part of your question involves why some people can "chip" on weekends or drink two glasses of wine every day and never end up with a substance abuse problem. The theoretical answers to that have filled volumes of texts and still no one has the 100% answer. Maybe some day gene mapping will help uncover the culprit.

If you find yourself obsessing with how much you have, when will you get more, how long can you make your supply last, where will you get the money to pay for it, feeling guilty about the time and money wasted, watching the clock to see if you can take more or just taking more and more cause it makes you feel better and not really to releive pain; then you just might have a slight problem. JMO of course!

CNN Special Florida Pain Clinic July 31 2009 Friday Night

Ya'll might be interested that CNN is going to do a bit on the Pain Clinics in Florida tomorrow night, July 31st.
They replay it again late at night. (cable channel 45 Cox. (other cable companies too might be channel 246 or 268 or 204, sorry not sure which ones).
Obviously it won't be good news. They claim Michael Jackson had many, many, scripts and used o.p. names.
(they jump on any story concerning drug prescribed by private doctors. Real ones!
Pain Clinics are one thing, private doctors with their own patients don't much worry around these parts. Doctor's that write for people in PAIN know they are helping their patients and if pressed for more each visit, can figure out their patient needs stronger meds or another way of treating them.
CNN is 'pro' Fed data base. It's bad enough the Feds give $ for States to set them up. One day, they connect 'em all up to them. And that's not a good feeling !!~

Thanks for the info. that should be interesting to say the least. It is a known fact that Florida has "the biggest problem with pain meds" and there are so many "pain clinics" where people pay cash and basically get what they want. Not to mention all of the rehabs in Florida as well; which has the greatest number for some reason. All of those people who went down there for treatment and relapsed, have one of those places around the corner and end up staying. I am guessing that Ft. Lauderdale is the highest concern, but we shall see what CNN reports. I think also that Florida has just changed a law with script monitoring. Meaning they are stringent now; as opposed to being liberal in the past.

Is "cash" a bad thing? If not, why mention it? Just asking.

No not at all.. I will clarify that, sorry. Meaning "cash" paying at these places is mainly so that insurance companies don't get involved and get traced back to the doctor. And also, these people are paying a lot more money for a visit; as opposed to a regular doctor visit. They sometimes pay about 200.00 per visit. I have heard many patients say this. And some even said, that while they have insurance, the pain doctor they see, refuses it and only accepts cash and as stated above, for the that reason. That is shady I think!

Just a guess here but don't you think there might be a causal link between the reported ease of obtaining prescription pain medication in Florida and the number of drug rehab facilities located there?
The two go together like carrots and peas.

Making more money is shady? Yea, I guess in Obama's America it is.

Martin, you are so brilliant!

Or it could just be because the weather is usually nice.
That's another guess.

LOL. That's it!

Actually, I think FLA is a little like the wild west. Anything goes. I have heard that it is easy to start all kinds of businesses down there. There are also many seniors, many facilities, many MEDS..

They'll hit you from all sides that way! It's a triple score with 1) drug war 2) judicial system (fines, incarcerations) 3) forced rehabilitation side. It's a perfect triple dip for $$$$$$$$$$$.

Just noticed your avatar. Obviously, gone but not forgotten.

oh my...

florida is also full of retirees, there is a reason there are more pain meds prescribed there. the baby boomers are coming of age, and the numbers will only grow. i can tell you for a fact, that you cant just walk into a clinic and get what you want. the media blows this way out of proportion. there will always be a shady doctor somewhere, (and maybe a few in broward county) but 99% of the places in FLA you must have proper documentation (MRI & CT scan) plus a referral from a PCP or neuro to get into pain mgmt. if you refuse alternatives such as psychical therapy, steroid shots, surgery... etc you will get booted. most people looking to just get a prescription are not going to go through all of this. (i would think) just because oxy 80 posts that he gets whatever he wants from his PM clinic and never has to take a urine screen does not mean the state is riddled with places such as this.

Also, the PMP that failed 7 years in a row passed this year. so anyone that is doc shopping or getting large amounts from a doctor that is brazen enough to prescribe in such a fashion will not like the results. most pharmacies will not fill for controlled substances if your doctor is not in the same county either.

there are a ton of rehab facilities in california as well, is it that easy to find compassionate doctors there? rehab facilities are filled with more alcoholics and illicit drug abusers than people on pain meds.

There is lots of incarceration and rehabilitation in CA. Take a look in the news at all the Stars going to rehab and you can maybe surmise there are plenty of "compassionate" if doctors in California if finances are available, I imagine.

I just looked up statistics and noticed in CA #1 reason for rehab is meth #2) heroin... alcohol falls at the bottom of the list (9.8%) .

Of course this is a list that doesn't even take into account prescribed medicines. I'd love to see the numbers then.

exactly, illicit drugs and alcohol. there is probably a reason pain meds did not make the list for CA. last i read, there was a 3 month waiting list to get into any decent pain mgmt program in the state. you would think a state that is liberal enough to decriminalize pot would also have more docs willing to help people with CP. but i am not sure that is the case.

and when talking about "Stars" and regular folk, it is a whole different issue. if i was brad pitt i am sure i could find a doc in any state that would prescribe whatever i "thought" i needed. with the average person it is a whole nother story.

I wrote this 3 months ago and figure this might help someone. It's great to be OFF the pills.

My natural drive is back and great. Life is great. Sure I might smoke a little herb here and there, but heck, who cares. No dependence - that's the ticket!

No more $100-300+ dollars a month on stupid pills. No more worries.

Its a struggle - but think of the end product. No more dependence!


REAL LIFE STORY - No Joke!


All I wanted to say is after 5 years of being on Norco 10/325mg, I quit


The climax - I was taking 12 a day... sometimes less or more, but that was about average.

I was doctor shopping with 2 docs and "THE MOMENT" was when I tried to pickup a prescription in the Walgreens drive-thru and KNEW something was up...

They were asking questions (birth date, address, doctor) and the tech said "hold on 1 second" - I bolted out of there in a hurry. I knew something was up. 1 week later, I received a letter from my original doctor advising me I can no longer be apart of his practice and I was done (Walgreens called both Doctors asap and advised what was up)


That was my beginning... I have a family, wife and kids, good job (rare nowadays) house etc.. I could not = NO WAY shape or form lose anything due to this [censored].

I decided it was my time to grind this challenge.

To me, the key is as long as all your sources are gone and you as a person understand the effects of the dependence of opiates, you are in good shape as the 1st step.

I wrote out a spreadsheet for a time-scale on tapering

I used Kratom capsules (they do work) and Tramadol. I was at the point of not taking any narcotics until 1/2 the day was over which I was taking 1 afternoon and 1 at night.


I was truly impressed with myself going from 12 a day to 2-3 a day in 3 weeks.

I ran out of the narcotics and knew it was a big challenge. The mental effect of just having them in your possession is incredible.

I went to a christian oriented practice and laid it ALL out. The Dr was caring and listened to me. He wanted to put me on Suboxone which involved many other activities (contract, N/A meetings etc) I asked if there are any other options? He advised a one other but it was going to be rough if I went that route. I said, I will do it. I was put on Clodione and Librium. The clodoine is blood pressure medicine and the librium is a anti-anxiety med.

Only problem I have had was the restless legs... gez did it suck. no sleep and work all day... day after day.. it works you for sure.

The hardest thing I have encountered was telling my wife. Man that was really something. She cared so much and it made me cry.


Yes the craving is still there but I won't do it again, to much risk and certainly do not want the monkey on my back again.


Summary:

Tell your loved one: Hardest thing I have had to do in my life. Support is by far # 1, you can relate your feelings and emotional state.

Tapering - big challenge. You have to discipline yourself. Even in stressful situations, do not take an 'extra'

D-Day: No more narcotics - the 1st day is challenging. Just keep yourself busy. The 1st day was rough but I did it.

(walk,hike, bike, drive in your car, mow your grass, work on your garden etc)

Work: Take a couple days off - 3 days would be good. Have some time to yourself and watch the discovery channel.


Just remember - if you go back, you will "cycle" and be again at the withdrawal stage.

Prey to God everyday and remember, your wife and kids are counting on you - actually your whole family is!


Tell yourself, I will no longer do narcotics / pain pills - daily reminder.


I still have a tough road ahead of me and sure I will for a while.

2 weeks from now, I will look back at this and the last 5 years and question WHY?

Forgot to add about the restless legs. I went back to the doctor 3 days later about it. I was prescribed 'requip' spelling is somewhat close.

This medicine is used for folks with Parkinson's disease to help them sleep.

MAN - this surely worked the 1st night I took it. I think it helped with going to sleep as well.


I sure hope this helps. If you need help, verbally, I can help no problem.



Again - if it wasn't for me double dipping and getting busted, I more then likely would still be on the pills. It was a blessing in a weird sense - if you know what I mean.

I am trying very hard to forget Too funny!

"To live outside the law you must be honest."
--Bob Dylan

That is a judgemtnal statment.. Most opiate addicts (myself included) didn't start taking them "recreationally" I had, no I have chronic pain, I can tell you what kind of pain I have, but I don't feel I have to explain anything to you or anyone else. I started taking prescription opiates from my OB-GYN when I was 14 years old. I had no idea what addiction was, and when I did find it out, I was already a full blown addict. So don't assume you know anything about opiate addiction unless you are there yourself...This is OMHO, but (For me) 12 step programs are a bunch of propoganda. I am not downing 12 steps for anyone who is a member, they just never worked for me...Not one size fits all

Hottie