I guess what I disagree with is that no one is ever considered 'recovered' and usually they consider it a life long disease. My husband was an alcoholic many many years ago. He quit and now we have drinks several times a year. When we go out for our Anniversary, or when we met someone for dinner, or go to the Christmas party, we have drinks. It's no big deal to him. We don't keep any alcohol at home as neither one of us drinks, but socially he finds it no problem. He quit about 23 years ago, before I met him, and although when we first started dating he could guzzle several pitchers of beer, he only drank when we all got together after work. I guess he still has the metabolism to handle it but I go to sleep after 2 drinks :), which is why I drink maybe 3 times a year.

I won't condemn anyone for finding something that works. My only complaint has been that many times AA thinks that you're an alcoholic forever, when many people can drink socially years after they stopped being an alcoholic.

oh yeah i agree my name is X and ive ben clean for 40 years---come on now

I agree. I also find that having people say that they are powerless is counterproductive.

I don't mean to offend anyone who AA has worked for, but I've lived with or been around alcoholics all my life.

Only an alcoholic (and he probably had personality disorder) could change the bible around (12 Steps/12 disciples), throw in an escape clause ("I am powerless...), and call it the "Big Book". And for those who say it is not a religion, the Supreme Court declared it one in 1999.

Whatever works--do it. I am only saying that I have seen as much manipulation go on in AA as in orthodox churches. Proceed with an open mind and caution--for both.

I probably shouldn't but I have to comment on your post. Maybe his sponsor should consider the possiblity that if you have too many sponsees, you aren't able to help any of them as well as you could if there were fewer. And too many is obviously bothering you and him when he has to turn off the phone. Adding stress and discontent to his marriage isn't good for his recovery. Just my opinion.

Rags

I revisited this thread just out of curiosity about the latest posts on 12-step meetings. Probably because I quit going to mine, and of course, used again. I'm struggling with it now, but I will be ok. It gets easier each day. I have to say that, ultimately, it doesn't really matter where your help comes from, as long as you get it. I'm not sure what to do in the coming year about meetings. I will say this though:

It is not the only game in town to stay clean. When I wanted meetings to work, they did. When I didn't care anymore, nothing could help me, including myself.

I used to be the big advocate for 12-step meetings, and still believe in their purpose. But I learned they are not always best for everyone.

I've met some fantastic people there and still keep in contact with them. But very, very few. I also met lots who did me more harm than good, made me feel unwelcome, and only had time for me when I was desperate on day-one. When I wasn't as needy, they didn't have time to say hello to me anymore. I met sponsors who had no business being one, and "old-timers" that bragged about their length of clean time to everyone, but had no problem breaking my anonymity at my place of employment.

I'm sure I will go to many more meetings in the future, but this time I will have to choose them more carefully. And find other ways to help myself this year.

Personally, I think it's a shame that there isn't a narcotic designed to safely treat depression. I mean, it works, plain and simple. How great would that be if they could design that somehow for people like Brenlee who posted earlier.

I struggle with depression too, and finally found a level of Wellbutrin that helped immensely, until I added Chantix to quit smoking. And that's when I started taking pills again. Chantix will depress you in a heartbeat, but works wonders for quitting. When I run out, I go right back to smoking temporarily.

Thanks for listening.

Happy New Year to everyone.
Rags

Howdy, all. I just wanted to say, in defense/support of all those who need pain medication: I believe you can become "dependent" on medication and not be "addicted" to it, and that is what this section of the forum was originally designed to discuss.

I'm sure there are people who need pain medication and have become addicted to it at the same time. I can't imagine how one would handle that problem. I am an addict and am working on this problem, but I also don't have any chronic issues that require pain meds.

As far as opiate addiction is concerned, when meds are not required, I've come to the conclusion that AA, NA, and rehabs, detox, all can help, but an addict must also make a decision and simply do it. No matter what. Sometimes we want everyone else to fix us, and what we really need to do is change our lives. And our actions.

Thanks for listening.
Rags

For most alcoholic/addicts the drinking or drugs are not the main problem. They are a symptom of a much more profound psychological problem. AA helps you deal with the real problem. Putting down the bottle is the easy part. Living an honest life is where some people find problems.

Look at the 12 steps. How many mention the word alcohol?

That was so well put! 15 years ago my ex-husband had a very real breakdown. His drinking came out in the open like a volcano. He chose to go to AA, not for me or the children or himself--he was concerned about losing his job and pension. Physically, he let himself go. Gained 100 pounds, smoked 4 packs of cigarettes a day and gambled away a couple hundred thousand dollars (over a period of time). He took up AA like a born-again Christian. He also abandoned his family physically and emotionally at a time we needed him the most (my mother passed away and my son's best friend hung himself in the same week, among other things). He spent all his free time at the AA group, being with the other 'earth people' as they called themselves, being sponsored and then becoming a sponsor to just about every one that came in. His ego was still in charge--they would never address that.

We went to a psychiatric marriage counselor, but he refused to go after 3 visits. He went into a "dry drunk" on the last visit and is still "drunk" to this day, although he has not taken a drink. A dry drunk is the psychological state the mind reverts to under stress. After our divorce and losing our home (over 10 years ago), he proceeded to run up even more credit card debt, didn't pay his income taxes for 7 years and defrauded me out of $1200 a month that I was due from his pension. I didn't find that out until the statute of limitations had expired.

I cannot hate him--obviously he is very sick, but the very, very sad part about it is that like most alcoholics, he is very convincing. Unfortunately he's not that bright, because he forgets which lie he told to whom (and is how I found out about the pension and forged documents), so he continues to sabotage himself all the time. It is quite sad as there is a very good person in there, too.

But at least he no longer drinks and drives. The marriage counselor advised me to get out of the relationship. He said that alcoholics ALWAYS sabotage themselves, and ultimate everyone around them. The doctor said it would be like being in the vortex of the Titanic.

I took his advice, thank God, and went on to change my own
life. I have no regrets, though. After all, what are we here for but to grow and learn to love one another, BECAUSE AND IN SPITE OF our faults and errors?

Just another dope fiend hiding behind sobriety. He shoots drugs without a needle. Robs banks without a gun. Steals without coersion. Kills without murder.

What a drug-monkey.

you guys know what...most are right about the die hards...but they always mention that the only requirement to going to aa is to try and stop drinking...i like going to this group myself...but the group doesnt discuss the bigbook like most groups ive been too, and most were polysubstance users like myself. basically go, get a topic out of the daily affirmations and we discuss it for an hour. thats it...and it a positive experience unlike stits experince who started the topic. even i still drink now and again, at least i can relate with people and they support me.

I too used to be a member of a 12 step program NA.. Steve you are saying something that I don't understand at all. First let me start by saying that if AA/NA works for anyone, I am happy, it just didn't work for me, in fact the worst 12 years of my life were in NA, however I would never put down their program or try to sway someone away from them if it works. My question to you Steve is you say you sometome use recreationally. I suppose you must keep that a secret from the fellowship because their way is abstience or nothing. Why do you go to meetings if you think it is ok to sometimes get high? Don't get me wrong, I see nothing wrong in using recreationally once in awhile either, but at least where I went, if you copped that to a member, you would then be a newcomer and not allowed to participate in sharing, chairing meetings, etc. Do you tell them, or do you keep this a secret, and if you do keep it a secret you can't believe in their program 100%. I know when they knew I am a methadone maintenance patient I was shown the door..Best thing that ever happened to me BTW..I walked out and never looked back..I do know that once you leave, the members will no longer have anything to do with you. They claim they "Can't talk to the drug" I learned one good thing in NA. The only time you look down at an addict is when you are bending down to pick him/her up..Too bad they don't practice what they preach. Again, these are only my experiences and OMHO

Hottie

I have to agree. To each is own. To some, they are a lifesaver. I don't have a problem with alcohol, so it would not pertain to me, but I have attented some NA meetings. First of all, when I went, the majority of people there were goofing off and fooling around. Secondly, it was boring as hell and I felt like I could have been doing something productive other then sitting around listening to someone whine about their plight. I think only those who got really bad and basically ended up homeless and lost everything or nearly died, would benefit from it. They are the ones who have the patience for it, not those who recognized a problem and intervened to correct it.

While that may be your take on the situation, it is far from the reality surrounding support groups like AA or NA.
It is not a matter of "patience" at all. Support groups serve all sorts of purposes for people who are in substance abuse recovery:
Reminders about how easy it is to relapse and how to avoid it.
Participation in a group environment that has no stated purpose other than to help themselves and others.
Learning the meaning of being of service rather than a selfish addict only interested in themself.
A place to go when the people, places and things become triggers.
And on and on.
Millions of people everyday who were never homeless, never lost everything or never almost died are active and successful in support groups that endeavor to keep those things from ever happening.
Just a matter of personal experience but I've seen many more ongoing relapsing problems and repeated trips to rehab and detox happening to people who thought AA meetings were boring and whiney. A lot of that may come from their belief that they are not "junkies" or "drunks" like those other people who attend meetings. That is ultimately not a healthy frame of mind when trying to beat addiction.

Excellent post. I think the person who can just recognize their problem and deal with it is, by definition, not an addict in the first place. Whenever I've seen a real addict try to use that self-help, Dr. Phil nonsense, it's gone very badly. Admitting you need other people's help sometimes in life is not a weakness, it's a strength.

A lot of the people who hate AA/NA actually hate being told they're addicts, as this might imply that they should stop using drugs.

sorry, disagree. I recognized I had a problem and fixed it and will remain strong enough to not get into the situation again. And I was addicted to medication but corrected it. It is all in our minds. Some people just don't have self control.

And Martin, I appreciate your explanation about how it helps some. I don't doubt that and understand it. But for me and I am sure others, it doesn't. And what I mean by patience is, that I don't have it when it comes to having to go sit somewhere for over an hour however many times a week and listen to how terrible people's lives are. I have to listen to them at work as it is. Please.

Maybe if you had spent more time and patience working with others in your situation you would not have relapsed so soon?

That very thing happened to me! People, places and things...

Kudos to you, but God, you must be a lonely lonely person expecting such perfection out of the lives of those around you so you don't have to listen to them ramble on about how terrible their lives are.

I think one of the important things about addiction is to get rid of the anger or pain that the individual is self medicating for.

From what I have seen from individuals involved in AA/NA, there is still a lot of underlying anger. The idea that they have no control actually gives them an excuse to relapse. Also, if there is a relapse, the AA/NA community is not supportive, to say the least.

Amberray is entitled to her point of view. A lot of us feel the same way.

To attack and insult someone so viciously, as the last poster did, reminds me a lot of the people I've seen come out of those programs. They are angry because they feel they have no choices and they lash out at people who feel differently.

drug Addiction is a symptom of underlying symptoms. In my opinion treating symptoms is not the same as treating the underlying condition.

One of the basic teachings of AA/NA is that you have to get down to causes and conditions or you'll never recover. Just quitting is not enough, so you've just quoted the program you're criticizing. I think this is what frustrates a lot of people. Lack of knowledge.

For my part, I've just never found self control to be very useful in fighting addictions. They seem to live in a part of the brain that doesn{t respond too well to logic.

Golden1,

I know the program has been a life saver for many people. I didn't mean to imply there was no place for it.

I've had some very close friends involved with the program, so I can only speak from second hand experience.

I certainly agree with a lot of the principles of the program. I'm also glad that it is an option.

That being said, I disagree with the all or nothing approach. I know another thing they said in AA is "One is too many and a million is not enough".

Best Wishes

P.S. Since I've never been directly involved with the program, I appreciate your comments and certainly will keep an open mind in speaking about it.

My comments do not stem whatsoever from any 12-step program. They stem from a fundamental misunderstanding of what the true nature of addiction/alcoholism really is.

An addiction is not all in one's mind. Not in the least. There are just so many factors that play into it. To boil it down to it being a simple matter of self-control, is just disheartening to say the least.

And its that line of thinking that in itself is detrimental to a person's recovery from said addiction.

I would venture to say that anybody who is truly in recovery would never fool themselves into thinking that since "they have no control," that relapse is inevitable and therefore okay. If this was true, no one would have any lasting and meaningful recovery. People obviously have control over their actions, AS LONG AS they stay away from the substances that alter their consciousness and therefore alter their thinking.

Of course everybody is entitled to their own way of thinking. So am I. I find it sad that people shoot off at the mouth toward people with real problems, explaining those problems as simply being in the head and exercising some self-control would help. There is a little more involved than that.

Thank you for your post. You are very right....there is no one simple explanation to cover why one becomes an addict. Self-control, or lack thereof, is only possibly one component involved. Or it might not even be a reason. Only the individual knows what controls or affects him/her.

I have known a few addicts and it seems that it is the way you are born, or not.

That is ONLY your opinion and you are rather immature and rude. There is a way to express your opinion (which everyone is entitled to), without bashing another member and calling them names. I am an objective person and not closed minded and have opinions of my own but will listen to other's who differ, and that is okay, and I may learn something new. But what you wrote is not okay and is against the Rules.

Yes O&W, I have heard Doctors express that opinion as well!! And they say that if not sooner, then later the addiction will come out. They also say that it usually skips a generation. Furthermore, there are some who say that a baby boy born from an addictive father will have a 90% probability of becoming an addict/alcholic as well. I guess some have no chance and that is why they are more vulnerable then others. It is a disease like Diabetes, only in the mind instead.

The beauty and danger of psychology and genetics is that we are very early in our understanding of the two. Everyone has an opinion on nature vs nurture. People are different. There are very few hard and fast Rules in life.

Yes, I agree with that also. I am sure there are plenty of addicts who weren't predisposed to the disease physiologically that is, but maybe perhaps if they grew up in the ghetto where there are dealers all around them, and got addicted from buying from them outside there window. As opposed to someone growing up on the upper east side without that accessibility. But yes, I agree it is a very complex issues with many theories.

OK. Using your logic. An individual with problems, (Do you know of any without?) has become addicted. He has the same problems that another individual has without (let's call it) the addiction gene. I say that the non addict can still be addiction free whether there is therapy or not. Hope that makes sense. Yea, we have all heard about the "underlying problems" thesis and I agree. I just haven't met anyone without underlying problems.

I don't think it's an exact science either, but to be fair, there is some general wisdom that can be of value (like recovering alcoholics might not want to hang out in bars, etc.)

I like the old saying that smart people learn from their mistakes, but REALLY smart people learn from the mistakes of others. I think this is the value of 12-step programs to me. If I can pick up some tips from someone who's been clean for years, then I don't have to make all those stupid mistakes myself.

I just think that recovery from opioid addiction is tough enough that I should probably look for any advantage I can find. Just seems like the smart thing to do. My pride's the only thing that tells me I need to have all the answers.