we didn't come to blows -- just disagreed.

and guess who got addicted to prince valium. i did -- and didn't realize it as i didn't think there would be any problem stopping.

i was prescribed way too much and i had a very yucky time when i stopped. finally was given librium to help me out. it was THE WORST, for me, anyway. my doctors all have said that as well.

there is no harmless benzo.

also, you're basically a much nicer person and i do have to work at it on here. but i try.

You have nothing to be sorry for; Kellik just askes a question. According to the BNF for Children, diazepam is indicated for the following:

Night terrors and somnambulism:

By mouth
Child 12–18 years

1–5 mg at bedtime

------------------------------

Status epilepticus, febrile convulsions, convulsions caused by poisoning:

By intravenous injection over 3–5 minutes
Neonate

300–400 micrograms/kg repeated after 10 minutes if necessary
Child 1 month–12 years

300–400 micrograms/kg repeated after 10 minutes if necessary
Child 12–18 years

10–20 mg repeated after 10 minutes if necessary

By rectum (as rectal solution)
Neonate

1.25–2.5 mg repeated after 10 minutes if necessary
Child 1 month–2 years

5 mg repeated after 10 minutes if necessary
Child 2–12 years

5–10 mg repeated after 10 minutes if necessary
Child 12–18 years

10 mg repeated after 10 minutes if necessary

------------------------------

Febrile convulsions:

Diazepam is the drug of choice given either by slow intravenous injection or preferably rectally in solution, repeated if necessary. The rectal solution is generally preferred as satisfactory absorption is achieved within minutes and administration is much easier. Suppositories are not suitable because absorption is too slow.

Intermittent prophylaxis (i.e. the anticonvulsant administered at the onset of fever) is possible in only a small proportion of children; rectal administration of diazepam is the treatment of choice.

-------------------------------

Muscle spasm:

Muscle spasm in cerebral spasticity or in postoperative skeletal muscle spasm

By mouth
Child 1–12 months

initially 250 microgram/kg twice daily
Child 1–5 years

initially 2.5 mg twice daily
Child 5–12 years

initially 5 mg twice daily
Child 12–18 years

initially 10 mg twice daily; max. total daily dose 40 mg


And in other peri-operative situations, in hospital of course.

There are no indications for asthma in this resource; I suppose depressed respiration could actually contra-indicate it and possibly cause hypoxia. Then again, opioids are sometimes used on adults in hospital to stabilise breathing.

And yes Recruiterlo, there is no harmless benzo, though they have few interactions. I don't know why Librium isn't used more often for benzo withdrawal.

I really didn't mean to cause such a commotion here. I merely asked a question.

It turns out, my daughter did receive a small dose of valium during her last stay in the hospital. They gave it to her to counteract the epinephrine, which kept her from sleeping. I didn't remember this because my husband was the one to sign the consent form, but I just talked to him about this and he remembered precisely the dose and everything.

I apologize if I offended anyone by becoming so upset. I felt attacked for asking a simple question.

LO,

I had no idea you had that problem. I am such a coward when I received a prescription for stress and it was valium it said to take three times a day. I did not do that. My blood pressure was so high nothing was helping. Bottom number was 115 and it was due to something going on in my life. I never did take it unless the walls were closing in on me and so it was never a problem getting addicted to it.

As for Librium I cannot take it. I was given a prescription and about 20 minutes after taking it I had a panic attack that would not stop. I felt a feeling of dread and I was scared to death. I realized it had to be the pill. If I had not been so sure they would have had to come get me with the white coats. I never touched that stuff again. My sister can take it but it I cannot.

I am no kinder or better than anyone here. I read everything slowly and carefully because I had a habit of getting too upset too quickly and not understanding fully what was being written. I have been told I am very high strung.

Luv you all.

the operative words that i seemed not to get across was

"IN A HOSPITAL OF COURSE" --can you imagine it being acceptable to give an infant any sereious medication that was not given first at the hospital?

no way, jose! first at the hospital and then they constantly monitor the child...in case we don't. docs are always showing moms the proper ways to medicate a child at home, even if it's morphine. starts at the hospital level -- or it should.

I think that this is probably a really odd question and I hope that this is the most appropriate place to post it. It is something that has puzzled me for many years now.

I am 51 years old. (Cats out of the bag, now!) In all of those years, I have been Rx'd Valium three times. Once for vertigo, and twice as an adjunct for muscle spasm or muscle strain treatment. I have also been Rx'd Ativan once for anxiety for my extreme fear of flying. I have also been given Klonopin and Xanax once each. So, as you can tell, I have zero tolerance to any benzo, never having taken any one of them more than two days in a row with literally years in between each Rx.

Here is the puzzling part. When I take one of the pills as ordered, I feel nothing. I mean zip, zero, nada. I've heard terms like "taking the edge off" etc...but I do not even get that. I will admit that with each of them, I then tried taking two, just to see if perhaps the dose was just too small. However, when I take two the reaction is always the same....I fall sound asleep after about 20 minutes or so of a bit of grogginess.

None of these benzos have any therapeutic effect for me except possibly as a sleep aide and to be honest, I take Ambien when I am suffering anxiety and that works very well for me (except when making the mistake of not going directly to bed. I do have the amnesiac sleep behavior problems) so I really have no reason at all to take a benzo.

Obviously there is meant to be some other effect from benzo's. I read on this board consistantly about people who depend on these to handle their anxiety. I read about people who have developed either dependencies or even addictions to them. What is the feeling that others experience from them that I am "missing?" What does a therapeutic dose of a benzo "feel" like? Is it similar to the feeling of drinking a glass of wine after a hard day at work? I hear people in the movies all the time joking about "Needing a Valium." For what?

The time I took a Xanax was after the death of my daughter. Obviously about as emotionally upset as a human can be. But again, nothing. Just a bit of sleep after I took a second one. Of course, in that circumstance, sleep was not a bad thing but still....it would have been nice to have been able to take something for a day or two to help get through the very first day or two.

I don't happen to believe in taking benzo's on a long term basis for short term problems anyway, but if I were ever hit with a true anxiety illness, benzo's would probably be out of the question.

So, for the pharmacologically minded and/or for those who take benzo's for their therapeutic effect....what do they "feel" like for you? Any idea of what the feeling is that would cause some people to abuse them?

Also, does anyone think it is possible that I lack whatever it is that metabolizes/utilizes the active component of benzo's?

BTW, at the times that I took these benzo's, I was on no other medications. I now take opiates for severe chronic pain and seem to have a normal response to those. The only other medication I have an odd response to is a muscle relaxer, specifically Flexeril. That one caused major confusion and it was so severe that I only took it one time.

Ideas anyone? Anyone else like this? Am I just a mutant?

If you're not active when you take one, like sitting in a chair, it's possible that the hypnotic effect will predominate. But if you're walking around at work, for example, you won't fall asleep on your feet (unless the dose it way too high) so you may feel the anxiolytic effects then.

If you've been taking them when active anyway, then my theory is obviously wrong! But on the rare occasions when I take them, that's how it seems to work for me, and even the short-acting ones will put me to sleep many hours after taking one. Which is rather inconvenient, and is one reason I avoid them generally.

Thanks for the response Nephro! I guess I just do not get the desired response from them. I cannot imagine why anyone would take them for anything but sleep, but obviously that is not the case for many/most. Is what you are saying that when one takes a normal-small dosage, the feeling should be one of something close to a relaxed effect? Or, as I said in the my first post, what you might feel like after drinking one glass of wine after a stress filled day? When I take one, I feel nothing, with the next dose up, all I feel is a great need to find the nearest bed/couch. Nothing but tired/sleepy/groggy.

From what I read here, there seem to be some people who get some kind of highy desirable feeling from them. That is the feeling that I am curious about. For example, when taking an opiate, even for severe pain, there is a feeling of general well being associated with it. At least for me there is although this has almost completely disappeared now that I take a long acting opiate and have done so for quite a long time. It is usually listed as "euphoria" as a side effect. Euphoria seems like a huge overstatement to me, but I do understand the "good feeling" that can accompany their usage. Something that goes beyond just feeling better because the pain is lessend. I have read here where some say that they do not feel that at all and I have no reason to not believe them.

Still, there is a reason why some use opiates recreationally and I am pretty sure that there are some who take benzo's for the same reason. I am basically trying to figure out what that feeling they are experiencing is. My ex-SIL used to abuse benzo's and she would look and act as if she were pretty messed up, kind of drunk really. I guess I should have asked the old bird before I divorced her brother. "Hey? Sis? Just how high do those Xanax/Valium/Klonopin make you?" LOL.

One last question. Does tolerance develop with benzo's the way that it does for opiates? Again, based solely on what I have read here, it appears to me that people can take the same dosage of a benzo for years on end and still receive the same therapeutic effect. I also saw a documentary on opiate addicts once and evidently it is quite common for them to mix klonopin and their opiate of choice to enhance the effect.

I hope that some part of this made sense to someone. Funny thing is that all of these questions are for no other reason than to gain knowledge. I happen to believe that you can learn a great deal more from patients that actually take a drug than from a doctor who is just going by a pharmaceutical companies marketing brochure.

Tolerance does indeed develop rapidly with benzos, and people who take the same dose for years generally know this and sensibly don't increase the dose for this reason, but merely take the drug to avoid withdrawal symptoms. They may also try reducing the dose to restore the desired effect.

I suppose the drugs do somewhat resemble the effects of a glass of wine; indeed alcohol and benzodiazepines work in a similar fashion and one can be substituted for the other as is the case with treating alcohol withdrawal with chlordiazepoxide or similar.

The pleasant feeling some people get from benzodiazepines isn't really in the same league as the euphoria associated with large opioid doses.

Everyone is different, it is not uncommon for some people to feel sleepy from benzos. Although the sedative properties are supposed to subside after a week or two of regular use. I too do not see the recreational value in a benzo. If I take one when I am not anxious it does nothing for me. There is some evidence that addicts do react differently to benzos. And that the mere expectation for them of a "high" can create a euphoric feeling. Remember, these are the same people who's idea of fun is taking several viagra or downing a bottle of Nyquil. Not exactly what one would call rational behavior! Fom what I have read addicts generally only use benzos in two ways:

1) To enhance the effects of other drugs (ie., opiates, alcohol)
2) To help come down or withdrawl from another drug

The actual addiction rate for benzos is something like 2% which explains their low schedule IV status in the US. Research does not support the claim that tolerance is common with long term benzo use. I strongly disagree that anxiety sufferers continue to take benzos long term merely to avoid withdrawl symptoms!

Valium is the miracle drug for me . I Probably require it 3x a year. I am a nurse and have worked in a vent unit for 20 years. this could be the mental and physical stress of the my job about every 3- 4 months I get these hugh muscle spasms in my Trapezious muscles;

. Sorry I got distracted . About 3x a year I develope these Hugh muscle spasms in my Trapezius muscles , those large muscles in your back which cover your shoulder blades. The pain is so bad it literally brings me to tears, When these episodes occur my Dr. prescribes Valium 5mg q 6 hours x 4 doses. In about 20 minutes my pain is gone. I don't understand why Drs do not use it for it's muscle relaxant properties more often. I don't feel sleepy nor tired when I take it, I just feel a wonderful relief from pain.

No one seems to really read the posts fully. No one said anything about giving a child anything that wasn't prescribed to them, they merely posed the question of whether or not children are ever prescribed that medication.

Does valium effect your performance in the gym. I work out a lot and have not noticed much diff, only take at bedtime though.

Depending on what time you train in relation to what time you take the diazepam, then yes.

Diazepam relaxes skeletal muscle; in the gym you want to flex skeletal muscle so it's working against you.

It is non-selective in which skeletal muscles it acts on, so can relax supporting muscles as well; this can be important in exercises such as squats or standing shoulder presses. If the supporting muscles are not rigid in these situations, there is more risk of back damage.

Thank you so much, its hard to find someone who uses benzo's and is still familiar with exercise and weightlifting. I definitely notice a little difference when I go and lift without giving the valium 24 hours to clean out of my system, its hard enough to lift at 7am and when im still dragging from the v's then its just plain torture. Thanks again!

Im sorry but a day or two after my child dies? A day or two? Please if I loose my child Im going too. Im so sorry for your loss.

But they do:



http://www.bookrags.com/research/benzodiazepine-withdrawal-dat-01/

I purchased 50 10gm valium from a site recommended on this blog. I ordered the “brand” name version, but I can not find any website that list this package and pill as legitimate. The package is a 10 count blister pack. The foil side says Valium, diazepam, 10 mg, it has the Roche trademark, it has some middle east type script and some text in English that, in part says, Roche Pakistan. The pills are blue, with Roche 10 on one side, blank and scored on the other.

Does any know if these are real?

Yes. But since they are not in my hands, how can I be sure? You do realize that Hoffman LaRoche is an international company that licenses the manufacture of it's products all over the globe. It is a European firm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoffmann-La_Roche

http://www.roche.com/cou_glo_asia_pakistan.htm

I'm in the same boat with mrsdoodle. I feel absolutely nothing from valium - maybe its weak? I got it from India. I am prescribed two 1mg ativan a day for panic attacks, and that seems to work far better than valium does. Yes, I know the differences between the two but I feel NOTHING with the valium. No calmness, no sleepiness - I could probably take 40mg and feel nothing. I am also temporarily taking Zyprexa for agitation (my psych is eventually going to wean me off it) and even that does a better job than the Valium. Personally, I see no value in benzo's other than to calm my anxiety. I just don't want to get "addicted" to them - I do tend to run to the Ativan a little too much and have to remember to use other coping skills before I reach for Mother's Little Helper (I love to call it that - what a great song!)

btw, mrsdoodle - I'm sorry to hear about your loss.

YES i have same problem, in the same spot,about 3times a day! and the doc used to give flexeril wich never worked then a clifonia doctor suggested i try using valium for the muscle problem, and it helps WAAAAYYYY more than flexeril! i also dont understand why they dont give this out more for muscle relaxer it works better than anything ive ever tried!
IMO valium is an excellent muscle relaxer!

from what i have read and heard from others, including chemists, diazepam is a very interesting classical benzodiazepine for a couple reasons.

it has several active metabolites, four i can name off the top of my head

1. diazepam (long halflife benzo)

once its in the bloodstream, two things happen. one, it soaks into your lipid tissues (fat) because it is highly lipid soluble. iow, a notable amount is stored in your fat cells. the rest is metabolized by liver into ...

2. n-desmethyldiazepam. VERY pontent and long halflife benzo. much longer than diazepam itself. its rumored up to 300 hr half lives are possible from this stuff. this is where most of the 'hangover' effects the next day come from imo, but that is mainly a guess. n-desmethyldiazepam is further metabolized by liver into either

4. oxazepam (short to med acting benzo) and

5. temazepam (short acting benzo)

so, bottom line is, when you pop a Val, you are about to experience to some degree or another at least 4 different active benzodiazepines at different times. this is in contrast to typical drugs, such as alcohol or cocaine, which have a distinct come on, followed by a peak, then a letdown. most benzos ae like this, usually having 1-2 active metabolites at most. therefore diazepam, and all of its active metabolites, can produce multiple peaks and waves in the experience over long periods of time due to the onset and peaking of the multiple different active metabolites introduced during different times throughout the experience once they are produced in the liver.

the lipid solubility is another factor. when blood diazepam values drop, some of the diazepam which was previously stored in fat cells gets pulled into the bloodstreem via osmosis/difusion. this has the effect of giving you progressibly smaller and smaller doses of diazepam (tapering) from within your lipid tissue, until most all of the original diazepam is eventually cleared from the lipid tissues and bloodstream, which can take days or even weeks depending on the patient's situation and biological makeup.

this is one reason why i humbly suggest that vailum is one, if not the, safest benzo to withdraw from due to its natural tapering through gradual reduction of blood serum levels from the storage and modulated release from lipid tissue.

question:

does anyone know if taking alprazolam (xanax) can inadvertently produce tolerance to diazepam? i know they are two diffrent medicines and all but they are from the same chemical family. the reason i ask is because i have been taking xanax to manage my daytime anxiety and panic. however, they are not so hot for sleep for me because i wake up half way trough the night sweating bullets anxious (rebound insomnia + rebound anxiety for your pharm geeks ... love you guys!) so i decided to switch to valium for sleep and xanax for management of daytime anxiety. well, when i got my valium, knowing one 10mg normally knocks me out like a ton of bricks, i took one and headed to bed assuming i'd be asleap in half hour. nothing happend, no effects. took another 10mg, this time i could feel the stuff working on me a little, because i was not anxious but i was not really sedated or relaxed or sleepy either. half hour later, take a third (30mg in 3 hours now ... a tremendous dose for me). eventually i got to sleep, but took awile. next morning i wonderd if the vals i have were weak.

so, i asked my friend to test drive one to make sure it is real. she takes SSRI and has virtually no benzo tolerance but is not benzo naive either. said half a 10mg made her feel like a zombie for half the day and they are DEFINITELY real. and potent, according to her.

so whats the deal with me? did the xanax make me practically immune to valium? and how can i undo this, if possible.

thanks everyone!

One benzodiazepine will definitely induce tolerance to them all. It cannot be avoided or undone, except for reducing the dose or taking them less often. Now would be a good time, since the longer you leave it the harder it will get.

It will be easier to do this using diazepam compared to alprazolam, which by reading your post, is already causing problems. If you need to take benzodiazepines regularly, it's best avoided.

Never repeat-dose when you think something isn't working, especially after only half an hour. Try another time instead.

An interesting post. Do you have the sources to hand by any chance? Graphs mapping the time/potency of the metabolites would be useful.

I've read that it can sometimes takes up to ~200 hours to reach half potency (half life) in certain patients (presumably those with slower metabolisms?), but to hear the figure in terms of weeks really brings it home.

nephro,

thank you for responding to me, i truly feel honored. no sarcasm whatsoever, i REALLY mean that. i love your posts and your amazing grasp on the subject of chemistry and pharmacology. it is a subject that fascinates me to no end but i feel like such a bimbo when i try to sit down and really learn and understand it. having said that, i don't know what i, or anyone on this entire board for that matter, would do without you !!! because of your technical understanding and your articulate, down to earth explanations that you share in your posts, you probably really HAVE saved someone's life someday and therefore ARE a hero, even if you aren't aware of it! im embarrassed to admit this, but even though i've never even seen your face, i think you are a very sexy guy no matter what you happen to look like! hehe, blush. when i become a rich lil jenny girl someday, i'm going to hire you as my personal pharmacist! and pay you very, very well ... in more ways than one hehe.

anyways .............

just thanks for putting my mind at ease about my alprazolam creating the tolerance to the diazepam! i thought there may be something wrong with me or something unusual going on in my liver and was a little worried about it. i'm glad you informed me that it is perfectly normal for benzos to create tolerances to each other. also, thanks for the info about re-dosing with diazepam (or any benzo?) is a bad idea because i have been doing it all my life. take a half, cant get to sleep/still anxious etc, take another half. if that doesn't work take another and another until it does finally work. thats what i would do and i now know, thanks to you nephro, that this is the wrong and bad for my body. so in this case you have saved me who knows how many years of unhealthy behavior. i cannot thank you enough.

off topic question here so don't answer/read if you don't want to ... but ... i can't help but wonder ... since one benzo produces tolerance to all benzos (i find that fact both fascinating and annoying at the same time) does it work the same for all chemically similar drugs? for example like if an alcoholic (or just a person who likes to drink alot if that word offends anyone) develops a high tolerance to booze (ethanol), would they also inadvertently develop a tolerance to, say, rubbing alcohol? or some other type of alcohol, like moon shine, since they are from the same chemical family? how far does it go? is it just because that they are from the same chemical family? or is there another reason or reasons? for example, would all downers (such as alcohol, benzos, barbs and even ambien lets say) produce tolerance to each other, because they all work on the GABA system in your brain and nerves? or is it the chemical similarities of the drugs from certain classes (eg benzos) that produces this "quasi-tolerance" for lack of a better word? or are there other factors at play here that i am totally clueless on?

DISCLAIMER FOR THE UNINFORMED: NEVER CONSUME RUBBING ALCOHOL, IN ANY AMOUNT, FOR ANY REASON, EVER! ITS POISON!!! IT WILL KILL YOU !!!!!!! The only reason i even brought it up was to ask a purely hypothetical question.

Yadock,

yes, i should have cited more sources ... it was irresponsible for me to post that kinda technical info without backing it up. thanks for calling me on it.

just google 'diazepam metabolization' or 'diazepam pharmacology' and you'll of course get a whole bunch of info, but my primary source for that post was the PDR, wikipedia, and http://www.toxlab.co.uk/images/diazmet.gif thats a link to an article that has a simple illustration of how diazepam is metabolized into its active metabolites in your body ... and its very easy to understand, no PhD (or even real knowledge) in chem is required at all to understand the illustration. this picture and the article that contains it helped me alot to understand about the concept of active metabolites of drugs, especially diazepam (one of my personal favorite chemicals, hehe)

as for the various halflives of the different metabolites, just type into wikipedia the name of one you are interested in, say ... temazepam, and on the top of the wiki page for temazepam on the right hand side will be a sidebar/table that lists things like molecular weight and atomic numbers and stuff like that. start at the top of this sidebar and work your way down. eventually you will find a row in the table that tells the halflife of the chemical that that page discusses. this table on the top right side seems to appear on every wiki page relating to the psychoactives. (it tells you other interesting info too, such as bioavailability, legality, and if its safe to take while pregnant or nursing). plus, the articles are (usually) good reads. explains the basic concepts without making your eyes glaze over from lab geekspeak.

if you want to dig REALLY deep (and WAY over my head as well) look into the CYP-450 enzyme system in the human liver and how that works. thats just a tip from my bf. i confess, i really haven't a clue wtf CYP450 even is, but i know its essential for benzo metabolization.

peace and love and calmness and pain-freeness to all db'ers, especially to nephro!

-Jen

I'm an ordained minister of the "Universal Life Church" and would be honored to marry the two of you jennygirl and nephro.

Become an ordained minister yourself at: http://www.ulc.net/

Hi Nephro, I do see that you always recomend tapering off benzos, in some way. In general what is the long term effects of taking benzos if you never stoped? If you took them, like many Old people I know take a clonazepam before bed-- I can see there are in there late years.

It surprised me when I fould out how many of my older neighbours take clonazepam to go to sleep, or for restless leg. One just died, from an unrelated condition, which is how the converstation started and wound up on medications.

But what if someone took these the rest of their life, besides the tolerance issue, what, if any, internal organs, or brain funtions would suffer? Thanks.

LOL. Ohhhhhh, that would be a nice dream / fantasy, but can't allow myself to get my hopes up into it too much at all of course. see, since nephro is a VERY GOOD MAN, which is a very rare and dying breed in this species today, he almost certainty has an incredibly beautiful, sexy and intelligent wife who loves him very very much and treats him amazingly well. catering to his every whim and desire just like he deserves. not sure jennygirl could compete with that, at least not now in her young age. despite how much of a hottie i am and how much i wouldn't mind trying! hehe.

but thank you for the nice dream nonetheless!

-Jen