I have never had an issue with benzos and I do not want one. "Knock on wood" I try to have a healthy respect for opiates (from experience) and benzos (common sense). Mental dependancy I can control, but physical dependancy is an absolute nightmare. I cannot afford "a monkey on my back". I will keep in mind your words of wisdom Nephro. Thanks

That would be rule #2 never using a benzo!

Didn't someone on this thread say we had to keep a √ on you.

Well I guess it is gonna have to be a big √.

Oh man, you really just have to find a way around this don't you. You know you are going to get comfortable with it to make sure all you business dealings are 100%. I am gonna tell you again, it is easy to get on them and hard to get off. Just like it is easy to borrow money but hard to pay it back, even when it's in your pocket. There is no reward for these things...don't you know you could lose everything. Go and read some of the horror stories. You don't want to do this, you have a family and your working at 97% is OKAY, and a little discomfort once in a while is not a bad thing. We all get uncomfortable in work situations.

√ing on you is gonna be a full time job, jl767.

Thanks for the information Whacker1. Now I have to find out what a "triazolo ring" is. To me the drugs are just way too different, like apples and oranges. Both fruits but way different.

Also, Nephro just mentioned that 1mg alp is = +/- 20mg of diaz as you also say. I always thought is was 10mg, but that was years ago. I know from trying to get off alp with it, it just did not help at all.

Neatjeans I am touched by your concern. I should be OK. If I am not, I am really good about tossing pills out in a conniption fit at 3am. If I have some issues I will cry out for help. Thanks.

jl767,
As preface: I've read your thread about the misery of methadone as a med treatment option, and the nightmate of opiate w/drawal, and understand completely, have been there, even can commiserate about the down-side aspects of methadone despite its excellent analgesic properties (I read you thread relating to the subject, and hope this doesn't all end up in the Sin Bin....).

However, be very careful not to underestimate the psychological effects of benzo dependence and w/drawal. Spoken as one who knows: remember how emotionally ragged you may have felt during the end of you methadone or opiate taper? Maybe you received Trazadone, which is commonly given at that time, as it is both an (old-time) anti-depressant and helps with the insomnia? Well, the rebound effect of benzo withdrawal is analogous to that post-opiate emotional rawness, but often much worse. All the mood stabilizing and buffering against panic, anxiety, fear of whatever, provided by benzo's may come rushing back tenfold when withdrawing from them. (The physical withdrawal from benzo's is another thing, but that has been addressed by others more knowledgable than I am).

Now I can say that truly moderate usage of benzo's, say one or two consecutive days every two weeks, caused me no physical or emotional dependence. Note that I did not maintain such moderate usage of my own volition: it was due to externalities completely out of my control. Several yyears later, after being struck by an ER nurse in an SUV wwhile walking through a pedestrian crosswalk, and the resulting head injuries, I've had to take anti-seizure meds, one of which is a benzo, and it is very difficult to stick with "b.i.d. prn" prescribed now that I work again and deal with life stresses, including some scary anxiety issues. Even a small (e.g. 25% equivalent, I won't start in with the details) dosage drop in the benzo's leaves me with what I call "bad rebound anxiety". Be careful, you sound like you've overcome great challenges in the past, are "high-functioning", and that encourages me to keep going. Plus your posts are funny and insightful. We worry and care about you!!!

I've found that the psychologically addictive aspect of benzo's is much more insidious and disruptive, for an extended period of time, than the physically addictive aspects of opiates/opioids.

Another analogy would be cigarette smoking: I never considered it during the week, due to smell, cost, no social reason to do it. If you can limit your mindset for benzo usage to strictly situational and thus not daily, nor even frequent, then you might really benefit. Plus you won't build a tolerance (well, maybe minimally), which is great too.

Sorry, long post, bad grammar, but I have a lot of personal experience w/ this!

Thanks Izit. The reason I have been asking these benzo questions is that I ordered Rivotril (klonopin) from one of the many providers. It is not the first time I have ordered them, but it is the first time that I ordered them since abstaining from opiates. They have always been available to me, but I have always tried to avoid using them on a daily basis. I have seen the effects from Xanax withdrawal first hand and was literally scared $hitless by the individuals physical/mental state of withdrawal. Weeks later this person was an absolute mess. I always thought opiate/opioid withdrawal was pretty bad, but the added option of death during benzo withdrawal made me even more concerned. I have tried many different medications and the great thing about klonopin is they are very effective and do not cause me any side effects. I plan on just taking the medication two hours before any job interview. I only have interviews sporadically so I should be fine as long as I act responsibly. I do not need them for anything else. I have had my problems with opiates in the past and I just know that these things can get out of control very quickly. I appreciate everyone's concern and helpful advice more than you know. Muchas Gracias.

jl767, okay I will lay off and you can post all you want about this issue, just so upon arrival you yell out loud, deal? Conniption, great word, my dad use to say that. Haven't thought about that word in years.

By the way, I read your story about the World Trade Center, an excellent read. Thank you very much for sharing that.

yeah I agree with you J, I thought opiate WD was bad but apparently some people really convulse instead of just getting the Ole aches from not re-dosing

Crudely put: Benzos is Benzos. The drugs definitely have different subjective effects, and their half-lives and absorption rates can vary radically. However, you can pretty much use just about any benzo to cover the withdrawals of another benzo.

If you're going to do a direct taper off of Xanax(alprazolam), you'll need to make exceedingly small cuts over an extended period of time using a water titration schedule. Making a .5mg cut of the stuff is only for people who enjoy benzo withdrawals, or seek self punishment. Here's a quick how to for the water titration methdod. It will allow you to make the necessary micro-cuts needed to get off of Xanax:

http://www.mainebenzo.org/documents/1Water_Titration_Instructions_and_Tools.pdf

Xanax is the one drug I'd definitely recommend using a substition method ,however. Valium will definitely work, but you'll need to take several weeks making a cross over to properly titrate. Ditto for any other substitute. Personally, I think Librium (chlordiazepoxide), Tranxene (clorazepate), or Klonopin (clonazepam) are better choices, but may be more difficult for some people to obtain in appropriate doses. Valium, OTOH, is availble in all four corners of the earth, in a wide range of doses, and is easy to break down into acceptable cuts.

Two questions:

1. Is Flexeril a benzo? Does it show up as a benzo on drug testing? My doctor hands it out like candy and I've turned it down the last two months because I still have a bottle and a half I need to go through before I need another prescription.

And I've read on here over and over that 1 mg of xanax is equipotent to 20mgs of valium. Now, as I always say, all bodies are different, but for me, 10 mgs of valium work exactly the same as 1 mg of xanax. And in fact it seems to work better. I do have muscle spasms and serious burning in the lower back and left leg which the valium helps. But whereas the xanax does nothing other than slightly calm me down and does help a little with my other pain issues, the valium is actually an interesting experience for me. I take it at night and I can feel it kick it and it's a pleasant, all over muscle relaxing feeling. I'd much prefer to take 10mg of valium over 1 mg of xanax.

So is it just that, on average, 1mg of xanax equals 20 mgs of valium, but it doesn't work that way on everyone, or is it straight up fact that you have to take 20mgs of valium?

I say this because I have plenty of both medicines, and I can go for long periods of time without the xanax, and at the same time I may go through periods where I take as much as 6 mgs a day (1mg 4x a day and 2mgs before bed to help with sleep if I don't have valium).

Just something I've been curious about, because if I took 20mgs of valium before bed I'd be useless through most of the rest of the next day. It stays with me way too long and I would have to drink 6 cups of coffee and sit on the couch for several hours before I could get the energy to take a shower if I took 20mgs of valium. One mg of Xanax doesn't do that to me.

Flexeril is not a benzo; a benzo would show up on drug testing, and yes, many people do find diazepam superior to alprazolam.

Flexeril is a muscle relaxer. A mild one I think? I use to take them about 2 years ago.

As for the rest of your question I can't answer. Sorry.

I took valium but it has been a long time ago. I do have a script for xanax but don't take it if I don't need to. I break mine down into quarter's. They are the 2mg one's. If my nerves are bad I will take a quarter of one. That is all I need.

I hope you find your answers..

I wanted to add that I think valium works better only because I seem to tighten up my muscles virtually all day long. I literally have to put my legs up, but a pillow under my knees and then physically force myself to relax my muscles. I don't know if it's a pain issue that causes me to stay so tense, but I think it's why the valium seems to work better. It relaxes the muscles for me, when I can't usually do that for myself. I often find myself completely tensed up while sitting watching tv and wonder why I do that. Then I force my legs and back to relax and get rid of the tension.

The position you refer to is called the 'crook'. Some people say that one should lay flat on a board, but this is generally not recommended. Your knees have to raised otherwise the lower vertebrae tend to be pushed forward.

Also, sometimes it helps to deliberately tense each muscle before relaxing it, and work systematically from the top down. The trapezius muscles are especially prone to tension due to stress; often one can see this in the patient by an observer.

What sort of drug test are you taking? If it's a run of the mill pre-employment screen, neither flexeril nor a benzo would show up. Most employers in the US use a 5-panel CHAMP (cocaine, heroine, amphetamine, marijuana, pcp) screen. You could, of course, always substitute with synthetic urine, if you're really interested in protecting your privacy.

Equivalency charts are just aproximations based on typical responses to a drug. There's no really hard, scientific way of determining the bioequivalent dose of one benzo to another.

Ashton's equivalencies tend to be inflated, because they are centered around her Valium substitution scheme. Pharmaceutical companies tend to underestimate the potency of their drugs.

In my opinion, and I am speaking ex cathedra, is that 1mg Xanax = ~ 15 Valium.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I don't have a urine test coming up. It's just one of those things you think about when you dont have anything else to think of.....

I just wanted other people's opinion of whether they had to take 20 mg of valium to equal 1mg of xanax, and what my personal experience was.

I will definitely give what Neo has to say a try. I used to do that as a teenager when I couldn't sleep: start at my feet, relax those and work my way up to head/shoulders.

Thanks!

i had to take a 10 panel test, it was pretty intense. They most likelly detected the valium in my system because I was required to fax a "prescription profile" to the test site. Basically a printout of the meds the pharmacy dispensed with the name of the doctors to make sure it was legit.
Now, I am not sure what I would have done if it was a ROP that scripted me the meds. I am not sure if they could provide a prescription profile, but just showing the legit bottle was not enough, I needed the printout from the pharmacy.
As far as the level of xanax to valium, the ashton manuel says .5mg of xanax is = to 10mg of valium, but xanax has a different feel for me so I guess that depends on the body,

Today is day four that I'm down to .5 mg. And wow, the mood swings are off the charts. Rage feeling. Crying jags. Fear. Underlying depression, coupled with anxiety. I'm trying to suck it up. I'm nervous about crossing to V's once they arrive. I'm worried about not. Heck, I'm worried they won't arrive. LOL All in all this sucks. Oh and I get hot or cold. At the moment I'm about right. But I've been experiencing hot flashes more than cold. The cold does happen though. Doing the best I can though and not updosing as much as I would like to. At this point I feel like daily taking is not as bad as this. Who knows.

Swirl,

Why you making yourself so uncomfortable. Wait for the valuim to come. You don't need to feel like this immediately, unless you want to. Why feel that way if your valium is just a week or so away. You'll have a breakdown and take it eventually so why not wait. No need to get frustrated going off 1mg. You can wait for the valuim. I know you feel you have to do it now because of your control issue, buy hey your feeling rotten. No need, your not taking that much in the first place.


NJ

I'm not as bad today as I was yesterday, thank God! I think the stress of some things around the house contributed to my increase in anxiety and withdrawal. I did up to .75mg yesterday. Today, .5 I am okay. I had dinner, and a glass of wine. I'm trying to wait and be patient for the V's to come in. The waiting is always the worst thing. Thank you for your concern, NeatJeans. Yesterday, was a very challenging day and that is putting it mildly. I can see how stopping the med c/t would be something horrible to withstand.

You'll have ups and downs Swirl, keep me/us posted. Hope they come soon.

NJ

I will definitely keep you posted, thank you. I've been doing some research for things that might help during withdrawal. I may try Melatonin for sleep. I do have a script for Ambien. I'm just not a huge fan of of it. I hate to give up one med for another. Decisions... I'm still hanging in there!

Swirl,

You may not sleep or get a good nights sleep for a while. I tried Melatonin for sleep but it gave me very weird nighmares. But everyone is different. That's OTC right?

NJ

NeatJeans,

Yes, it's over the counter. I could always try a benadryl or flexeril. Benadryl always make me tired the next day though. Blah.

Swirl

Swirl, I am thinking, and I know other DB'er many think your 1 mg issue is not a problem. But maybe if they can think of it as 3 or 4 x .25mg per day, which is a starting dose, but wow what a difference it makes in the quality of life. I know it did in mine when I needed it. I know I felt much better when my doctor prescribed it for me at that dose. I didn't even want it but heck, he called it "a silver lining around my cloud". It got to be one big "silver lining" and the cloud was getting smaller, and smaller, and at that point I was just addicted. Hence, my withdraw from it was hell. But I still remember the relief I felt when the .50 or .25mg kicked in and it did do the trick. Anyway, I am thinking you are going to have a pretty hard time sleeping at night, that's pretty much your hardest time, at night, right? So perhaps you should save your xanax dose for sleeping. And maybe in the morning cut your, I hate to say this, coffee intake in half. Because you are not going to be able to sleep for a while, but you probably know that. If not you'll see what I mean when your valium comes. I know trouble and stresses at home definitely contribute to fear and anxiety issues (control issues don't help either). Work and hoome issues as well as many types of life events are most likely the leading reasons people use this particular medications.

Just thinkin', that's all. I hope I am not getting you all worked up and making you worry. But I understand your situation all to well.

NJ

Hi ya NJ,

Oh, I'm sure that very few (if any) think that 1 mg is really a problem. Let someone take that for a few years and decide they want to just up and stop taking it. Then, tell me it's not a problem. LOL! Frankly, if I knew I'd have a Dr. to prescribe it from this point on, I would be fine. My fear is at some point I'll have a Dr. that decides to stop prescribing it and forces me to go c/t. I have ZERO desire to experience what you and I've read others experience. I feel my best and most calm taking 1 mg to 1.5 mg a day. I have OCD. That alone produces enough anxiety. Add that to my other anxiety and it feels amplified. I'm sure I'm obsessing about not having a prescription anymore and that's what has brought me to wean myself altogether eventually. Maybe? I don't know.

As always, thanks!

Swirl

Hi Swirl,only just read some of your current issues,wish I had read them earlier.I have been through withdrawal numerous times from lots of benzos and thought I would throw in my 2cents worth.I dont know all your details,so the following is very general.
Firstly,when you take benzos for a long period,they strip the body of alot of nutrients.If you just swap straight to Valium,you might end up addicted to that.So here are some tips you can do now,before stopping and after stopping.

Take magnesium,calcium(both as high a dose as you can tolerate,in a ratio of approx.1-2partscalcium:1partmag.) and zinc(max.20-40mg/day).All these help relax,stop jitters,act as mood stabilisers plus many other benefits.

Take vitB6 for nausea when needed.No more than 100-200mg/day.
B6 also helps mood swings and stomach cramps,sleep plus more.
B1 to help sleep,sinus issues if any.B12 and Folate for mood,energy +more.
Possibly low dose multiB.Too high a dose will speed up withdrawals.
Glutamine and Taurine amino acids for muscle relaxant,calming the mind +more.
Flaxseed Oil for essential fatty acids.Help stabilise mood,sleep and gives energy.
Maybe take Valerian herb if need to.Try first to see how it feels for you.Acts like a mild benzo.Will also prolong the action of benzos.Start low (maybe 250-500mg and if need to,go up to 6gms/day)
Low dose 5htp and/or Tryptophan for mood,headaches,sleep +more.
There is also GABA,but while some people find it excellent,others find it 'jittery'.Start low,maybe 100mg and go up to whatever you need.Try low first to see how it feels.Gaba is usually better after stopping benzos.
Also,some times you can get sugar imbalances during withdrawals,so be mindful of the need to have a glucose drink or candy or something if needed.

There are other things that help,but without knowing more about your individual circumstances,I will leave it at that.
I'm also assuming you can afford to buy these things.
I've helped many people withdrawal,and tried MANY things,but these are the ones that definitely help if used at the right time in the right dose.
I'm withdrawaling myself right now(have been for last 3weeks)so its from experience.

And yes,1mg/day for years is a big issue for some people.

If L-glutamine has muscle-relaxant properties, wouldn't this be problematic regarding its use in bodybuilding?

Thank you for the info and recommendations, JokerOwling. Interesting you mention it strips the body of alot of nutrients. I wonder if that's contributing to my weight loss. That's something to think about.

That is a lot of herbs/vitamins you mentioned. I'm not sure what to try first. I definitely think I will increase my cal/mag intake. Start taking fish oil again. As well as try the Valerian. I took that some years ago for one reason or another and I remember it smells bad. LOL After starting those, I'll consider adding something else, dependent on how I'm feeling. Reading the list again I may want to include B6 in my first round of experimenting with supplements.

I'm sorry you are having to go through withdrawal. It definitely sucks.

Thank you again and hang in there! That's what I tell myself.

Its more of a muscle calming effect,although some people do get a relaxant effect.I was sort of speaking of the subjective experience,which is what most people identify with.But I live with a bodybuilder and know others,and they and I often get the relaxant effect.This is why they will take it after workouts(besides aiding recovery).

Swirl,the doses I stated for the calcium/magnesium and zinc are for the chelated forms(these are non-toxic in high doses,where most other forms can damage the kidneys in high doses,and don't absorb well).The chelated forms compete with amino-acids(proteins)for absorbtion as well,so take a short while before eating.
Flaxseed oil is preferable over fish oil(read my posts in the fish oil thread).
Valerian does smell bad,and at high doses can make your sweat smell the same.Low doses don't have that effect,and while your still using a benzo,you will only need a low dose.
High doses(usually above 4-6gms/day can cause heart palpitations in SOME people).

Thanks for your encouragement too.Mine is self-imposed,I need to clean out for a while.Its takes alot of will power to stop(around 7 different meds)when they are right there in your cupboard.
Good luck.If I can help,just ask and I will at least try.