Hello - because I seem to be one of those pathetic cases that nothing works for my insomnia (ambien, restoril, seroquel, benedryl, valerian, you name it), my Neuro/Sleep doc has suggested I try the "Xyrem Success Program" (sodium oxybate, aka gamma-hydroxybutyrate), usually used for Narcoleptics but also for intractible insomnia like mine. I have read the info and this stuff sounds REAL serious - actually it's so damn controlled I almost would rather be prescribed Laudanum - laudanum has less WARNINGS on it. Looking for WISDOM from some folks like Nephro or Chemsynth, not "DUDE YOU GOT GHB???" please.

Thanks so very much - this stuff sounds scary but only if you do stupid things with it - wanted some opinions. Thanks again!

Fae

GHB is an amazing substance which used to be sold in health food stores, but succumbed to DEA Scheduling following widespread abuse. There's a great book on GHB (if you can find it) called, "GHB: The Natural Mood Enhancer - The Truth About GHB". Check out this site:

http://www.life-enhancement.com/article_template.asp?ID=76

Thank you for the article - I didn't know it could be used as an antidepressant, most of the literature says it can cause suicidal thoughts! Don't need that!

Because of all the abuse warnings in the product literature, I also checked out the Erowid vaults on GHB really just to see what dosages people were taking who had bad effects from it - and it really showed me what NOT to do - i.e. alcohol with it - I don't drink anyway so no problem there. (Erowid's a great place to learn how to avoid being stupid - heck people on there have smoked Dragon's Blood incense thinking it was some kind of "Red Rock Opium" - but I digress...)

I have learned my lesson from bad experience with dangerous meds when I had a seizure from Tramadol so I am looking for warnings of people who may have had or heard of adverse effects from therapeutic dosages of this stuff.

I don't think you have any more to worry about than with most other drugs that are new to you. However, the BNF states that benzodiazepines and opioids should be AVOIDED (red warning). Tricyclics and antipsychotics may interact, but they are not absolutely contra-indicated with sodium oxybate.

The warnings about benzodiazepines and opioids are particularly important as the drug can cause anxiety, joint pain and abdominal pain.

Here is the full list of side-effects, but remember they include every possibility these days:



I am assuming you will be starting off on a low dose and titrating upwards; this usually minimises side-effects.

Thanks Nephro. I should be clear then because I will be taking this INSTEAD of benzos, and I'm no longer taking any opiates, plus I avoid tricyclics like the plague since that in combo with the Tramadol gave me the seizure...

It appears that the side effects only occur if you don't go to bed immediately after taking it - I hope to keep the dose as low as possible to avoid side effects - the info sites also state "serious withdrawal" but the more I read the less stock I put in that one. The "bedwetting" is the one that particularly worries me. Who the heck wants that? I've never been prone to it though. What do you think?

I took GHB for years, and the worst adverse effect I ever had was nodding out at work (and I shouldn't have taken it at work!). At theraputic doses (and that is the key), there were NO adverse effects.

You probably wouldn't have seized on Tramadol if TCAs weren't involved.

It sounds like sodium oxybate may have some effect on certain smooth muscles, but if you aren't sleeping well anyway I'm sure you'll be alerted to any desire to pass urine. I still think nothing to worry about, as long as you start on low doses and wait a while before gradually increasing if needed.

Thanks again Nephro. Yes you're certainly right about the Tramadol/tri combo. The doc who gave me the Ultram KNEW I was on Doxepin so that was her bad, IMHO.

The dosage will definitely be titrated up from I believe 2.5 ml up to 9 if necessary (split dosages). I'm hoping not to have to go above 6 because it seems that's when the side effects start to kick in. Oh well if this doesn't work there's always, um, chloral hydrate maybe?

A frying pan over the head would be a good one but that might cause quite a hangover. Seriously tho, thanks for the encouragement. I was afraid I was going to hear "DON'T DO IT" about this stuff.

Correction, make that grams not ml.

Do you know the price of Xyrem in the US? In the UK a 180mL bottle of 500mg/mL solution costs £360 ($720)!

If you get up to 9g daily (the maximum dose), that bottle would only last 10 days.

Thanks Neph. I did some research on that too, looks like around $250US per bottle. I have pretty good insurance and over here in the US the company that distributes the stuff (you cannot get from local pharmacy, it's centrally distributed by overnight courier) works with my insurance company themselves to get it approved. I can only hope for the best.

Besides, since I stopped most of my online Rx buying, I can afford it now. =)

Amazing, I have literally never seen ANY med that was this tightly controlled, even the strongest Opiates. But even though this is only a Sched 3, if they catch you selling it etc., they punish it as a Sched 1.

It's the only substance that is assigned Sched I and Sched III simultaneously.

Yeah I got that impression from that article you sent me. I think it was that article - I've read so much on this now. But luckily the more I read the less afraid I get. The growth hormone factor would be a nice side effect. Maybe I should start pumping iron again while I'm taking it. =)

Wow, I've been reading up on this drug. Awfully expensive for a drug that is so cheap to make.

For any one's reading pleasure:

Xyrem

Thanks for the article NotBillGates! Interesting name. Anyway I hope the heck this doesn't cost so much. Hopefully I can get some aid on it. I do agree with the dual scheduling after reading alot on Erowid vaults about the ridiculous cooked-up, goddess-knows-the-concentration stuff they're selling as GHB on the streets. I'll stick to the pharmaceutical version used as directed, thanks!

EXCELLENT - I just got a call from the central pharmacy about my Rx and my insurance approved it for me with a copay of $45.00 - quite affordable.

That's great news FaerieWitch. Please keep us updated as how it helps you with your sleep.

-=NBG=-

Looks like it's going to take about a week or more for this whole paper process before they can even send the bottle to me - I expect to have it by the end of month. Do you want to hear the step by step process as I go through it? I'll be clean, depending upon what they look at. I think really they wanna make sure you're not susceptible to diversion which I'm too old for that kinda [censored] anymore.

FaerieWitch, I would be interested in hearing the steps. From what I gathered from my reading is that only Jazz Pharmaceuticals (the only maker of the drug) actually dispenses it. I'm surpised with all the hoopla, that it's only a Schedule III drug.

NBG, I was told that the pharmacy (which is Jazz Pharmaceuticals, you are right) will be calling me this week. This is a funny med because it's a Schedule 3 when it's "Xyrem" but if you misuse it or sell it as "GHB" then you will be punished with Schedule 1 penalties.

I know I would be interested in hearing your experience. Insomnia absolutely sucks, and it sounds like you have a BAD case. Best of luck to you FW!

Oh...I forgot to add..you aren't the only one who has to deal with that "paperwork process". My pain mgmt doc made me contact an ex-FBI agent who now does background checks, and get mine checked for diversion purposes. That was $200 wasted. I haven't even had a speeding ticket!

They made YOU pay for the background check? That blows Aardvark wind! (a cute way of saying "that sucks")

Definitly. Keep us up to date

UPDATE: The pharmacy called me today, they just reiterated what I'd already read in the program packet and said make sure you don't mix it with alcohol - I'm not a drinker so no worries there. They will ship it tomorrow and it will arrive by FedEx on Friday. I will have to sign for it. Sounds familiar...

Yep. They made me pay for it. The retired agent then sent my pain doc a certficate saying this "An extensive background investigation has been conducted concerning Mr. Smith. The investigation revealed nothing negative concerning Mr. Smith, nor did it reveal anything that may concern a physician who would prescribe any type of medicine for Mr. Smith."

Anywho...Keep us posted on how the Xyrem works. I bet you are due for a good nights sleep!

OK I received the package this morning - it had 2 bottles of medicine (2 x 10oz.) plus little mixing cups and and a syringe to draw the liquid, I'm to take 2.25 g diluted in 2 oz. water and then (I'm not really sure on the reasoning for this, but) set an alarm for 2.5 - 4 hours later then take the 2nd 2.25 g dose. I'm kinda hoping that I won't need the 2nd dose, but the pharmacy guy seemed to think it important (I only half-understood his reasoning, even tho I'm no dummy). We'll see. After reading all the horror stories I'm NOT going to play around with the dosages on my own. I'll update again after I've tried it tonite.

Oh and the $45 copay was INCLUDING the overnight shipping, so I'm quite happy with that!

Allow me to share my experience after using GHB for about 3 years... GHB induced a very deep, restful (stage 4) sleep, but metabolized off after about 2-3 hours - at which time I would wake up (usually full of energy). I always needed the second dose to get back to sleep. As a matter of fact, I began to miss getting a full night's uninterrupted sleep!

I think you'll quickly discover that you don't need an alarm clock for the second does. Instead, you will invariably wake up after a couple of hours. Please let us know how it works out for you. I predict you're going to be completely amazed at how well you sleep, and how good you're going to feel!

Thanks Presto, I haven't known what it is to have a full night's uninterrupted sleep in years so that thought in and of itself doesn't bother me. I was kinda figuring I'd probably wake up on my own as soon as it metabolized because my mind just doesn't wanna sleep on its own it seems. I do hope I get the energized thing the next day like people say, that would be a great benefit!

Well, day one, no go. It made me seriously dizzy after about 20 minutes but when I laid down I did not fall asleep, and even 3 hours later when I took the 2nd dose I did not sleep. So I'll give it the rest of the weekend at this dose then call the doc Monday if it doesn't start working and see what we do next, since this was just the starting dose of 2.25g (x2).

With how dizzy it made me I'm surprised it did not work, because that's usually the kickstart that makes me able to sleep (for one or two or hours) from Ambien or Soma.

In case anyone's still interested, day 2 I did get some sleep (about 2-3 hours per dose, woke up on my own, no alarm needed, Presto77 you were right) - but that can also likely be attributed to the fact that I'd had NO sleep the previous night.

Am definitely getting a, let's say, "hyper-peristaltic" reaction to this. Not sure if that's due to the sodium content sucking all the water out of my system into the digestive tract... (I can feel a dehydrating effect from this, so drinking extra water during the day).

Faeriewitch I do sincerely hope you get good results with Xyrem. Insomnia is often played down by people who dont suffer from it and that always annoys me alot.

As a sufferer myself I know how debilitating it can be to go days on end without sleep, it's terrible(and thats an understatement).

Anyway I wish you luck and I hope you get some pleasent deep refreshing sleep, keep us updated with your progress.

Monkey.

Thanks so much Monkey!! Yes I have found that people who do not have insomnia do not seem to understand how awful it can make your life!

I've got a call into the doc to see what next since the starter dose didn't really work for me.

They bumped me up to 3ml x 2. It worked a little better, but I could really use 3 doses per night as I wake up after 2 hours.

Hey faeriewitch,

It seems like you have quite a good doctor. Sucks that you still are not getting enough sleep though. I'm sure your doc will bump up the dose again until you get the desired effect(well I at least hope he will).

Im keeping my fingers crossed for you Faerie

Thanks again Monkey. The only thing that scares me is all the descriptives on like RxList and Drugs.com say SEVERE Withdrawal if you stop taking it, who needs that?

faerie have you tried Doxepin for sleep?. It's what I take at night. I have not found Doxepin to be that great on its own but it is very effective with 300mg of Lyrica.

Lyrica promotes slow wave sleep and seems to keep me asleep for longer, makes me feel refreshed in the morning.

I take Doxepin at 225mg per night and 300mg of Lyrica as well.

I know you have probably exhausted every med out there if you are on Xyrem at the moment but I just wanted to mention the above meds because I have been through all the sleep stuff and its only dox and Lyrica combined together that helps me out. It might be worth a shot for you after you try out your trial with Xyrem.

I have tried(in no particular order):
Celexa
Dothiepin
Remeron
Ambien
Zopiclone
Restoril
Valium
Rivotril
Trazodone
Seroquel

Only Dox and Lyrica work for me.

Thanks for the list - I have tried quite a few of those, Doxepin I cannot take because it lowers seizure threshold, all TriCyclics do. Ativan has worked for me, I may go back to that if I do not get results from this stuff, or if I just get too scared of it. =) I didn't continue the Ativan because I was afraid of benzos at the time. This stuff sounds far more frightening.

I feel for you. Not being able to sleep is the pits. You turn into the the living dead. Walking around in a zombie like state. I cant believe Seroquel didn't do it for you. One of those knocks me out for good. I have a concern with Xyrem. I had a bad experience on it. I was walking around my apartment totally naked with my roomates and their friends over during a birthday party. I was the only one in a birthday suit and don't remember anything. I tried to pee in a closet and poop in a trash can. It was one of the few times I have ever experienced sleep walking.The next morning I woke up feeling like a truck ran over me and threw up several times. Celexa is also a no go (fro me) too. I used it for depression and it worked well. I stopped taking it and strted up again after a few weeks. It was a big mistake. I started to shake and was lightheaded everytime I sat up. After I puked pink/orange I flushed all of them down the bowl. To each their own though and I wish you the best of luck.

Thanks 767 - That sounds like me on Ambien!

Man you must of been waisted! I know I should'nt laugh at others misfortune but that story made me chuckle specially takin a plop in a trash can

The worst part for a man any way was I wasn't showing much of an elephant trunk if you know what I mean. Pharms have a way of effecting men in different ways. I guess it was the Xyrem because it wasn't cold in the apartment. I never lived it down. My nickname through college was vienna sausage :-). I told them all that this little appetizer turns into a full course meal, don't you worry, but to no avail. I hope I am not being too bold for all of your tastes.

I'll gladly pay you thursday for a hamburger today -wimpy

You must have been drinking it from the bottle all day long... Maybe try Thorazine (or a straight jacket).

Xyrem is extremely safe - unless used as above.

Yes I was reading Erowid and people who take it all day long, even for as little as 5 days, can have withdrawal. It can even give DTs like serious alcohol w/d but that's I believe if you take it all day for a long time. There was an article written about 2 doctors' experience that said it was like a combination of bad alcohol w/d & benzo w/d.

There was one post of someone who was taking it regularly (nite only) who had some mild w/d including auditory hallucinations. That's why it's starting to scare me.

I wouldn't worry about those on Erowid. Most of them are on every drug under the sun, and their brains must be fried beyond repair.

This was the first one I read, it's actually a paper written by a UCLA doctor and a toxicologist, it's not written by a "stoner". It scared the heck out of me. I think the Xyrem Success Program should make all their potential patients read it, just to show them what NOT to do.

Reprint of report by Texas Commission on Alcohol & drug Abuse http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ghb/ghb_addiction2.pdf

What a ridiculous statement.

faeriewitch, you say that tricyclics lower seizure threshold.

Are you on Ultram(Tramadol) or are you epileptic?(hope you dont mind me asking)

It is a shame you coud not try an tricyclic because both Doxepin and amitriptyline are very useful drugs for insomnia.

I would hazard a guess that you have tried a low dose of Remeron(mirtazapine) 7.5mg or 15mg or does that lower threshold too?.

Purely at random, I clicked on a drug and the first 'report' for that drug on the site. Allow me to quote:



http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=28494

What a plonker.

If you fancy reading the rest of it, be my guest. I couldn't be bothered. I saw enough in the first paragraph to totally disregard anything that person says.

I appologize for getting off topic (Xyrem), but Amitriptyline alone worked well for me. At first I felt a little creechy on it, but only if I took it in the morning. I would take it (Amit) 2 hrs before I wanted to go to sleep and slept well through the night. It did make me light headed when I stood up and I ate like a cow. I could not stop stuffing my face. My stomach was full, but my brain said eat eat eat.

Nephro, I would tend to agree with you, people on there have smoked Dragon's Blood incense thinking it was some kind of opium, but the one that scared me was the actual article written by the Toxicologist.

Monkey, you're on the money - I was taking Doxepin and the doc prescribed Tramadol and guess what, I had a seizure. My brother has a seizure disorder so that kinda thing is in my family, though I myself have only ever had that one seizure. Now I won't touch tricyclics - I was given the Doxepin to help me sleep and I remember it didn't particularly work for my insomnia, just made me groggy.

I have never tried Remeron, RxList says it's a tetra-cyclic, doesn't appear to be the same kinda thing as Doxepin. I checked the interactions and it doesn't look like it lowers seizure threshhold. Can it be taken on an "as needed" basis or do you have to take it every day for a month before it will work?

Now here's a weird thing - since the doc raised my Xyrem dose level to 3g per dose up from 2.25g, I actually got Less sleep (awake after 1 hour) than the lower dose (2 hours, when I was able to fall asleep at all, that is). Now why would that happen I wonder?

Wish I could help! All I know is the UK protocol for titrating the dose upwards:

Initially 2.25 g on retiring and repeated 2.5–4 hours later, increased according to response in steps of 1.5 g daily in 2 divided doses at intervals of 1–2 weeks; max. 9 g daily in two divided doses

The reference sections of Erowid are fine; I just hate the reports.

Did your doctor report your seizure as being the result of the combination of the 2 drugs? I would hope so, since this is the only way to prevent it happening to others.

Yes, the doctor did report it, actually the hospital did - it happened at work of all places and they called an ambulance. It always shows up as Seizure Risk if you do a drug Interaction Checker (I learned to use that for every prescription I've ever gotten since that happened). The doc who Rx'd the Tramadol knew I was taking Doxepin too. I guess they don't know these things. The pharmacy didn't warn me either.

Those UK directions are the same as the US ones, with the same titration intervals and dual dosing per night. I've given it since Monday on this new dose so I'll probably call the doc's tomorrow and let them know that 3ml isn't cutting it either.

What bothers me is the nurses will tell you it can take a couple of weeks to a month for it to really work, so what am I supposed to just not sleep for a month?

This is very strange stuff. One has to wonder if even the barbiturates would be a more sensible option here. The setting of an alarm to take a second dose must be unique amongst drugs which are supposed to help sleep. I am assuming the total quality of the sleep is better, even if it is divided.

faeriewitch Im sorry you had a seizure that must of been a terrible experience :(.

You could ask your doctor about Remeron at a dose of 15mg. The lower the dose the more effective it is for insomnia. The good thing about about Remeron is it works straight away for sleep and you dont have to build it up in your system. If you were depressed you would have to wait a couple of weeks for the antidepressant effect to kick in.

As far as I'm aware Remeron can be taken as needed for sleep, be it for a couple of times a week or month or indeed long term every night if needed. It takes about 1 hour before it kicks in for sleep and lasts for several hours.

"Chasing the Dragon" is smoking heroin, maybe he got that idea from the name. Pretty wierd anyway.

With certain drugs more does not = better sleep (for me) although its odd especially with Xyrem. I have noticed that my body has a toxicity threshold and once I cross that line it follows the law of diminishing returns. You guys don't need a nanny, but be really careful when combining. I know that feeling of desperation when you can't sleep and the delirium it causes.

I am glad to hear that you were ok after the seizures.

Nephro I agree with you that maybe barbituates would be less worrisome, I thought maybe Laudanum myself. =) And as Presto had foretold to me, the alarm clock has definitely not been needed, I have yet to sleep even 2.5 hours on one dose.

JL767, Actually the Dragon's Blood incense was being sold as "Red Rock Opium", and even Law Enforcement had put out warnings about this "Red Rock Opium" which isn't even opium in any way, shape or form. Someone pulls a fast one on people and word gets around and suddenly everyone believes it's true even though it started as a myth, kinda like global warming... (I'll probably get my head bitten off for that one - let the flames begin!)

Monkey, I don't remember the seizure, thankfully you pass out when you have one. I do remember the lead-in to it, and THAT was scary! I'll ask him about Remeron if this Xyrem doesn't work out, I will at least give it a fighting chance, I'm only about 2/3 up the dosing schedule so it may work when he bumps me up more. Or at least we can hope.

Im still keeping my fingers crossed for you Faerie!

Sweet dreams.

He's now raised me up to 3.75g per dose, starting tonite. I'll keep you posted!

After reading what Claude Rifat had to say about GHB, I decided to give it a shot for approximately 3 months for it's sociabilizing effects and it was wonderful. Best sleep I've ever got was on GHB. Unfortunately, waking up every so often and re dosing every 3 hours wasn't cutting it anymore so when i ran out I decided to quit and that was it.

After a while I started getting some aches so look out for that. This was after 2nd month of chronic use (re dosing every few hours). I think the chemical itself is pretty safe and there is a lot of animosity towards is because it was considered a "date rape drug" and was demonized, while alcohol continues to be THE #1 date rape drug and ppl die from it every day, but it's legal, but that's another debate...

I agree with whoever said it's ridiculous that they charge so much for something that's easily and cheaply manufactured; granted, a lot of dirty conversion techniques out there, not to mention it's illegal and that's as far as I'm gonna go with that.

Anyway, good luck with Xyrem. I've read everything I could get my hands on regarding GHB so I'd be happy to chime in every now and again... Also, glad to see a lot of people on here who know what they're talking about...

Yes I had read about problems with serious w/d (i.e. delerium tremens for 2 weeks) for people who use it round the clock, so that scared me away from any experimenting for sure. I've got a refill coming in Friday (with my insurance it's only $45 copay including o-nite shipping) and I think I may end up having the doc up me to the max dose, but I'll avoid that as long as possible. I am SO used to not sleeping through the night that the re-dosing thing doesn't bother me, and I sure as heck don't need to set an alarm for it. I wake up after about 2 hours, and make myself wait until the 3 hour point before redosing.

I used it nearly every day for a year when it was still legal and had some pretty nasty withdrawl effects.

I feel for you cleo, I've been through opiate withdrawal enough times to know what it's like (that's overwith though), however this withdrawal sounds far more scary. I'd rather not lose my marbles for a couple weeks...

The main symptoms were insomnia, an extreme photosensitivity, and the most unsettling sensation as if every nerve in my body was being pinched. This lasted for about a month before finally subsiding.

A MONTH!!?? Are you kidding!!? Sounds more like heroin withdrawal than GHB. And what else were you doing? Geez, I don't believe MOST of what people report about their GHB experiences. Sounds like a classic case of polypharmacy to me. And we wonder why these substances get banned...

Whatever

Presto, I've read doctors' reports from people in Rehab for GHB, and they said for long time users, people reported experiencing some symptoms for up to a few months. It's possible. Actually heroin PHYSICAL withdrawal can be over within like 2 weeks (i.e. at Betty Ford the heroin people are set loose in like 12 days). It's the mental part that takes VERY long.

Man, I just looked at the bill for my Xyrem shipment and luckily it only costs me a $45 copay, because the value they showed was like $920!!

Yeah Presto, whats the deal with you? Why in the world would you infer that Cleo was mixing a bunch of substances, including herion? Do you actually know her out of the DB setting?

Cleo knows her stuff, and is just trying to help faeriewitch not get blindsided by terrible withdrawls.

Anyways, back to the adults in the conversation... These stories that you all are telling sound oh-too familiar! The amytryptiline worked for me, but the nightmares were awful. Always something happening to my wife or son. Horrible..

Sleepwalking and sleepeating on Ambien.

Too worried to try a high Ativan dose because of the hundreds of mg's of narcotics I take daily.

Faeriewitch, I just hope that this last increase works for ya. It seems that the Ativan might be a fallback option if you can feel safe on it.

I am taking a low dose of a bezo called temazepam right now, and it WORKS. Ir works well. I get the liquid-filled gelcap version called Normison. It is badass.

I have a secret source that I will give YOU because I feel so bad for ya. Let me know how ya make out...

Sorry! I'm a bit over reactive on the subject. You see, GHB was probably the most helpful thing I've every found until all the abusers got it "scheduled" out of existence. Whenever I hear that someone had a weird experience on it I just assume they abused it (like the guy who was up all night peeing in his closet). I'll refrain from commenting like that...

True. And to answer the question, I was on no other substances whatsoever at the time. I don't take opiates ever, and I didn't even start useing benzos until shortly after this time period. So the rebound insomnia and sensitivity to light were bad for a few weeks and began to fade. The other thing was not what I would consider pain, but a very disturbing overall bodily sensation as if every nerve in my body was being tweeked. A sensation which I have never experienced before or since. This too faded with the others.

Faeriewitch, I think an interesting question to ask you because I've often had people that have real bad insomnia issues tell me that if/when they've ever went into the hospital for a surgery they have really had to lay it on hard to the anesthesiologist to really confirm and make sure that "I'm out".

Because just like many of the insomnia/sleep meds don't work for you, one would think that even the hospital grade meds used to put people under for surgery would not work as well and require a higher or second/third dose for people that cannot be put to sleep easily. And then there's close monitoring if it's a long surgery because you don't want someone waking up.

RachaelRay, you are right, when I went in for a gastroscopy they had to give me double the amount of sedatives that they normally give people, and I only weigh 105 lbs!! I just wouldn't sedate. And sedatives are not something I've ever used regularly, I guess I'm just resistant.

Superscapes, unfortunately this 3.75 dose does not keep me asleep but for maybe 1.5 hours if I'm lucky. I'm going to have to tell my doc and have him put me up to the higher dose it looks like. Ativan has worked for me in the past, but then it also hasn't - so that's a risk. Temazapam (Restoril) doesn't do it either.

All in all, I'm liking the Xyrem/GHB less and less because although it 'Supposedly' is out of your system by 4 hours, I feel wonky the entire next day after taking it at prescribed doses. I don't know if it's the salt that's doing that to me or the medicine part of it. But I have developed dark circles under my eyes and I feel very unhealthy on this stuff, despite drinking tons of water to make up for the salt.

Thoughts?

They have finally upped me to the maximum dose (4.5g x2) and it seems to be working. I am finally sleeping nearly 4 hours per dose. Looks like I've found the right dosage!

Well, so much for the Xyrem, it gave me severe myalgia in my legs and also a wicked hangover the whole next day - and that was using AS PRESCRIBED (caveat: I am a lightweight, lik 100slbs). I can use it once per night only without sifnificant backlash, but I'm definitely not one of their "success" cases. Still, it's good in a pinch when you need a solid 3 hours sleep.

I'm scripted 600mg of Seroquel nightly for sleep. Are you actually telling me 600mg of Seroquel won't put you to sleep? I'd find that really hard to believe if you say that. I get a solid 10 hours of sleep with this dose. It's knocks me out and keeps me asleep all night.

Seroquel is also non narcotic. I have severe sleep problems, even more so then you listed here...

Have any of you tried GABOB, 5HTP, Melatonin, L Tryptophan, GABA, or any combination of these? GABOB is very close to GHB but I use it with no negative sides. I also use some of the others to bring on relaxation and sleep. Just thought I'd mention these as they are easy to get and non-addictive without side effects.

Peace and good night,

Carollea

Just a quick note to add: While I've seen seen people try to use GABOB to achieve effects similar to GHB, it should be understood that combining this supplement with any benzo medication can create a serious negative result. To be on the safe side, I wouldn't even combine it with another supplement like melatonin or L-Tryptophan.

Well, I use them with no ill effects at all. In fact I sleep very soundly and wake refreshed. If one is taking MAO inhibitors they must be wary though. Seratonin syndrome could occur. I would take these substances more readily than prescription meds any day. I do not advise mixing them either. To each his own however.

I'm not saying 600mg of Seroquel wouldn't help me sleep, but I'd probably never wake up again! Seroquel had too much of a hangover effect, even at 25mg. I once took 300mg and I literally thought I was having a heart attack! I couldn't even imagine taking 600mg.

You can break a 25mg into as many tiny peices as you like. There was a time that 12.5 mg worked for me.

Once you get use to Seroquel you won't have any hangover effect.

Then if I cut it down that far it wouldn't put me to sleep. I'm finding that Ativan, 2mg works, just as well as anything (and sleeping Longer which is a miracle) - I'm using that for now. If I start to get tolerance I'll switch to something else (with the help of my doc of course). I think rotation is best for me.

Faeriewitch, Can you tell me which insurance approved you for the Xyrem success program? I was Denied by my insurance!

Was the claim condition coded as insomnia? I really want to try it as a last resort for me too, after several failed attempts at prescription med's for my terrible case of insomnia. The main recurring problem was my tolerance after only a few weeks.

Anybody who uses GHB everyday for a year *must* be a substance abuser. Especially if they continue to push it's "medical" value when there's hundreds of other sleep aids available today - instead of wanting a demonized illegal chemical.

That's just the same as someone wanting 'crystal meth' legalized for "medical use". Only someone who is a drug seeker or a junkie would love to get their hands on "Xyrem" from a doc for a 'legal' high. GHB is used *way* more as a recreational drug than for medical issues these days. Nobody should medically need this unless you suffer from a rare form of narcolepsy. Gamma-Hydroxybutyric acid is a club and date rape drug that's hurt and killed many.

http://www.streetdrugs.org/ghb.htm

http://www.theantidrug.com/drug_info/drug_info_ghb.asp

http://www.drugfree.org/Portal/Drug_guide/GHB

http://www.4women.gov/faq/date-rape-drugs.cfm

GHB is listed on the DEA's website as being a C-I illegal chemical that carries heavy penalties behind it.

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/scheduling.html

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/agency/penalties.htm


So why should this junk be used for something as *common* as insomnia? (no pun intended) Hell, if that's the case - then doctors should start prescribing LSD for depression!

I'm highly *against* rec users looking for a quick fix by using the excuse "oh, I 'need' it for (*add medical reason here*)" - and I'm highly *against* date rape and violence towards women.

You're easily propagandized and obviously quite ignorant about GHB. For every one of your "demonizing" websites I could provide you with links to scientific studies and clinical evidence about the benefits and safety of GHB. It has been used regularly in Europe since the late '60s
for all sorts of conditions, and with great success.

You clearly don't know anything except what you read on biased websites. What you'll NEVER find on these websites are all the nightmare stories associated with LEGAL prescription drugs - because big Pharma and the FDA thrive on them.

She is indeed. Everything she says is an outright lie, a gross distortion, or pure ignorance. Taking a medication every day for a year constitutes abuse? That's news to me

Everything on those sites I posted are very true - the DEA doesn't lie about drug scheduling. GHB has hurt many people, it's illegal and that's a known fact.

First of all, the DEA does lie. Second of all, this is a prescription C-III medication and that is a fact.

That's what I posted on the other thread: Xyrem is indeed C-III in the US as a medicine, but possessing it or GHB without a prescription makes it C-I:

http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/infopage/xyrem/xyrem_qa.htm#6

I think the UK only has it in Schedule 4 Class C, which is the same class as diazepam and zolpidem:

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:TZn...clnk&cd=6&gl=uk

so it doesn't even have the safe custody requirements.

It would seem the bottom line is: you need a prescription.

Thank you, Nephro for providing that information. You're a good helper around here that doesn't all upset if someone doesn't agree with your opinion.

I'm still anti-GHB, though....I don't like it regardless of it's uses.

Perhaps if we referred to it as sodium oxybate (which a salt of gamma-hydroxybutyrate) it might sound less intimidating. The base is actually produced by our bodies naturally.

It's unfortunate that it's abusable, but not uncommon amongst medicines. The sad fact is that most of the substances discussed on the board could be used for sedating someone against their will (all benzodiazepines and barbiturates; most opioids) and it's usually a case of which one gets the news headlines, and therefore a bad name.

Lest we forget, alcohol is the premier date rape drug - and it's perfectly legal. Let's not confuse the substance with the crime. And as most everyone on this board should know, legality has little to do with usefulness. So please stop trying to justify your judgemental nonsense. Who really cares if you like GHB or not.

Yes, alcohol is the *premier* of date rape drugs because people slip the chemical in a person's drink without them noticing. Alcohol is abused by many, many people and it's totally legal. The only requirement is that you be over 21 to buy if you live in the USA. Any "drug" can be misused - everybody knows that.

I'm a very opinionated person. Don't like what I say? too bad - because nobody cares about what you think either.

Wrong - alcohol is a date rape drug all by itself. It has nothing to do with slipping chemicals in. All you need is alcohol... The reason I say no one cares what you think is because your facts are totally off.

You're right, alcohol does provide a vehicle for further intoxication. But alcohol itself, alone, can be considered a date-rape drug, even without anything added. Along with a case involving a girl who tried to accuse a boy of rape even though she did consent (in Cambridge I think), this is indeed what sparked the notion that the UK were going to introduce written consent which must be signed by bot parties involved forms before sexual acts.

I agree.GHB is endogenous to the human body and has more good health related properties than is possible to mention here.

It was only a few years ago that it was sold in health food stores.

Many people don't realise that ghb is a natural metabolite of gaba,and is increased in the body by the use of benzos.

Propaganda is a sad thing indeed.

Yep, alcohol is a pretty common base for all types of problems

"Drinking makes such fools of people, and people are such fools to begin with, that it's compounding a felony." - Robert Benchley (1889 - 1945)

"Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut." - Ernest Hemingway (1899 - 1961)

Want to see something funny about drinking?? Watch this -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZmDWltBziM

May I strongly suggest you start your own thread about alcohol, Hemingway, rape, or anything else you want to talk about and just let the rest discuss the topic "Prescribed Xyrem for sleep" on this thread
Changing the subject of a conversation is not polite...

Nephro,
I just read all 10 or so pages about Xyrem, and, I thank you greatly for your assessment and comments made on 10/24/08 @ 5:54PM. I am in total agreement with you!! You are a great asset to DBF, and have a lot of knowledge that has helped me make some intelligent, informed decisions in the past!
I used GHB during 1998, for my insomnia issues, before, the USA classified the drug a Schedule I, somewhere around 1999 to 2000. I also relate well to the experiences that Faeriewitch has described in detail! I used sodium oxbate under the brand name "Alcover" that was manufactured in Italy, by Laborarorio Farmaceutico CT S.r.i., Via Dante Alighieri,71 San Remo (M) in the 140 ml. size liquid bottle. during a 90 day to 180 day trial. Ten years later, while in Innsbruck, Austria on vacation I was not able to obtain it OTC, without a local prescription, This was in May 2008. I inquired with my USA
psychiatrist about "substituting Xyrem" for my many years of use of "trazodone 150 mg. for my insomnia at bedtime", as I also have a 10 year history as being his patient. He is licensed to prescribe Xyrem, but informed me a recent patient in "non-compliance" had misused the med, and thus I interpreted he was quite conservative prescribing "Xyrem" (already), thus he turned me down. I requested "Xyrem" on my last office visit only 4 weeks ago, and he listened to me, as he knows I "self-medicated" briefly in 1998, (before I was under his medical care), in 1998 with Sodium Oxbate, but "very cautiously", from a "sealed pharmaceutical bottle sourced from a legitimate Italian manufacturer". I have also tried other prescription meds over the years, such as Remeron, and, Seroquel, as a substitute, for my use of "Trazodone" by my Medical Doctor. I have concluded today, that after reading this wealth of information on this thread of drugbuyers, that it is more trouble than it is worth. Faeriewitch also, just validated my memories, as a 190 lb. 6' high male, with true
gradual "disappointment" with my use of "Alcover" from 1998!
Besides, my brand new copy the 2009 Red Book, (by Thomson Reuters) published by PDR Inc. Montvale, NJ (USA) quotes the "Average Wholesale Price" in the USA of Jazz Pharmaceuticals "Xyrem" (sodium oxbate in 180 ml bottles is now $534.00 US per bottle). This renewed DEA status, of "partially removing the USA ban of GHB from a C-I to a C-III med is "interesting". I will refrain from further personal comments about my opinion, except to say that, in 1998, I paid only $69.00 per bottle "of 140 ml liquid" twice that year, the same size that Jazz Pharma now manufactures, before the meddling from our DEA, from www.antiaging-system.com, who stopped shipping "Alcover" to USA citizens (from UK) on January 1, 1999. Again, more trouble than it is worth for me,
to get any further involved with my psychiatrist, plus, I do not want "all of this paperwork" to get in my medical history, and the databank (if I could get it now) of the PMP a/k/a Prescription Monitoring Program, active in my home state, and, for the risk, of even a higher rate increase in my awesome health insurance expenses! Another great read on this med, and complete 25 year history of Sodium Oxbate, before
the original 1990 FDA ruling removing the OTC sale of GHB, is from page 50 to page 91 of "Better Sex Through Chemistry" by
John Morgenthaler & Dan Joy (Smart Publications) ISBN number
0-0627418-2-5 which includes a "update" on the USA press "demonization of GHB" (authors words, not mine) from the death of the late actor River Phoenix in 1993, and the resulting "sensationalization" by a highly read article in "Newsweek" magazine, Dec 6, 1993, and, "misinterpreted data" from extensive research from epidemiologist Ming-Yan Chin and Richard A. Kreutzer, M.D. from 1992.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned GBL (gamma butyrolactone) as an alternative. It's a prodrug of GHB where your body converts it into GHB when ingested. I'm aware that it's illegal in the US (admin, delete this post if necessary) but not in the UK (yet), and you're quite literally drinking drops of paint stripper when you take it. Nevertheless, it's easy to buy online, turns into GHB and it is a much, MUCH cheaper way of getting that [censored] into your body than buying these Xyrem pills.

GBL is now falling under the UK governments eye and stricter controls are in force. As well as its abuse rising there was a death quite recently in the news.

I know this was an old post (Below). I started using Xyrem recently. I was taking Ativan.

What do you mean by "BNF states" of Benzo's?

Since Xyrem is so expensive...I was going to ask my Dr about using Ativan on certain nights and Xyrem on other nights. Never together of course. I'm assuming this won't be a good idea? (Of course I will discuss it with my DR)

Just wondered if anyone new the specifics of benzo's and Xyrem. I occasionally work nights and it would be nice to use Xyrem the next morning. But the days I work days I would like to use Ativan at night.

I've used Xyrem for about 1 1/2 months now. I have to use the max dose or else it actually keeps me awake. I feel like it is "drying me out". Skin is super dry. Eye's are dry. Anyone else have these side effects?

Thanks

Jr



NEPHRO WROTE : I don't think you have any more to worry about than with most other drugs that are new to you. However, the BNF states that benzodiazepines and opioids should be AVOIDED (red warning). Tricyclics and antipsychotics may interact, but they are not absolutely contra-indicated with sodium oxybate.

The warnings about benzodiazepines and opioids are particularly important as the drug can cause anxiety, joint pain and abdominal pain.

Here is the full list of side-effects, but remember they include every possibility these days:

I have narcolepsy and my neurologist, along with stimulant treatment, I also take Klonopin, and his opinion was, for me at least, Xyrem could be added safely. He said the main problem in using Xyrem with other sedatives is the risk of depressing the autonomic respiratory function, and that most benzo's don't have much effect on respiration. Opiate analgesics on the other hand do depress breathing and combining them or barbiturates with Xyrem could severely or fatally depress respiration.

Whoever is still interested, GBL becomes scheduled in the UK at the end of the year. Starting next year I doubt many people will be able to obtain GHB or a prodrug of it without a script. Anyway, I know it could be very useful, but I would never touch it due to its nature as a schedule I substance. I prize my freedom more than my sanity.

Just as some go to great lengths in order to obtain medication for pain relief so that they can lead a some what normal life, I can imagine a person with narcolepsy doing whatever it takes to find medications that are effective in decreasing events such as spontaneous sleep episodes, hypnogogic and hypnopompic hallucinations, sleep paralysis and cataplexy.
I forgot to mention in my earlier post, I have read of doctors specifically prescribing Klonopin with Xyrem in order to dampen the burst of wakefulness that some people experience between the first and second night time dosages.