long term stability

hey whats up people,i have been on suboxone for five days now it was the best thing ive every done in my life, i only felt withdrawls for a few hours, considering i was taking
450 mgs of hydro aday that was incredible. if you have any
?? or tell me your success stories with getting the hydro
monkey off your back!!!! it has to stop sometime!!!

I was wondering what is suboxone like? Is it as effective painkiller as hydro? Does it come with all the usual side-effects (sedation, euphoria, etc) as other opioids?

Scenario - Is there any reason that if someone was in serious pain, would it make sense to take suboxone (or any other buprenorphine product) as opposed to hydrocodone?

As anyone can see, I don't know too much about the efficacy of buprenorphine, but I'd much appreciate the insight.

I hurt my back in Mexico last year and was rx'd some
Suboxone from a Mexican M.D. Imagine my surprise when I expected some codeine or something else of that ilk. I took it as rx'd, .2 mg (I think that is the dosage) twice a day, sublingually, and it was very effective for my pain. I have no experience using it for WDs, but it helped my pain, for sure.

Buprenorphine is a partial antagonist and can precipitate withdrawAl symptoms is those addicted to other opioids. It can also reverse the effects of recently administered opioids even if you are not addicted (though as long as you wait for the usual time before the next dose was due then this shouldn't be a problem).

Buprenorphine can be a very effective and long-acting analgesic.

So, let's say you've been using hydrocodone for a while. If you start taking buprenorphine for detox 24 hours after your last dose of hydrocodone, you'll still go into withdrawal symptoms? I thought buprenorphine is used to help you detoxify from other things? Or did I miss something?

If there's no hydrocodone left in your system, you should be ok. But remember the detox doses are much bigger than analgesic doses for opioid-naive patients.

I have several years experience w/suboxone & would not reccomend it 4 pain relief at all. the drug was designed as an alternitive for methadone maintainance(opiate replacement therapy) for recovering heroin addicts. The problem is that you build a physical tolerance and dependece quickly. I have been taking 3x's 8mg daily for 2 years now. It is a huge inprovement considering I was taking 235mg of methadone daily for 3 years prior to that. Talk about withdrawels. Anyway now happily stable on suboxone and it works well as opiate replacement but has no effects on pain whatsoever. I have some chronic arthritis in both hands due to multiple fractures 6 years ago and even with the suboxone I still take ibeproufin for my aches and pains. Another thing is that suboxone contains a Narcan type opoid blocker so once you have taken it several days in a row it will block any effective relief you might get from other opoid type pain meds ( percocet etc.. ) Good luck . hope it helps

be carful snarfles. u should b o.k @ 24 hours. It depends on how much ocy u have been taking & how long. I have on several occasions had suboxone throw me into withdrawels because I took it to soon & it is not fun. The key is to start off slow. Take 4mg sublingually wait a couple hours and see hoe u are. If u are not any worse or feel slightly better take another 4mg. see the thing is that as your body adjusts and still is craving oxy & u take too much suboxone the narcan that accumulates will block your receptors from receiving info from the oxy left in your system. The drug has many unique characteristics that even my doctor doesnt fully understand. If u begin to take it & u get the slightest hint of being " more sick" stop immediately and wait 24more hrs. Remenber Suboone is very different that straight Buperenorphine because of the added blocker. & yes Bupe is an effective blocker as well once it is in your system. Good luck.

An analgesic dose for non-addicted patients is 200-400 micrograms. This must not be confused with the detox dose which is in the order of milligrams.

Ooh, interesting. Thanks!

this is a general question about sub. What happens if you are on sub, and have an emergency situation and you have trauma such as a broken back, limb, etc. and need powerful pain medication? What happens? I know you could discontinue the meds for a few days, then take pain pills, but what if you need pain control immediately for an emergency situation? Is there anything they can give you that would work if you had taken say 4mg of sub a few hours before your accident? This scares me about sub.

I can only speak from my own experience, but sub has worked pretty good for my pain issues, as well as for my w/d symptoms. I have to take the occasional advil, but for the most part, sub keeps my pain at bay. I have no knowledge of what you would do in an emergency situation and needed opiate meds for pain, but I am sure there is something that can be done. There almost has to be.
Hope ya'll are having a blessed day.
Mel

i asked the same question of my sub detox doctor-fentynal (spelling?) Thats the stongest stuff that will penetrate the sub. Hope that helps.

if you are takin to the er for pain you should tell them you
are taking sub right away because they will give you the wrong
narcotic and the wrong amount,because of your high tollerance to opiates this will only make things worse,my sub detox doctor gave me a card to give to other doctors just for this reason,here is what it says.
this patient is taking a combination drug of buprenorphine,
a partial opiate agonist,and naloxone,an opiate antagonist.
patients taking bup may have a diminished response to opiate
medication(including those for the management of cough or pain) opiate-containing preparations should be avoided when
non-opiate therepy is availible as an alternate.

in an emergency situation required pain relief in patients
taking bup,a suggested plan of management is regional anesthesia,conscious sedation with benzos,or use of a non- opiod analgesic or general anesthesia.

in a situation requiring opiate analgesia,the dose of opiate
required will be greater than usual.a rapidly acting opiate analgesic,which minimizes the duration of respitory depression,should be used. the dose of opiode medication should be titrated against the patients analgesic and physiological responce,WITH CLOSE MONITORING BY TRAINED STAFF.

overdose with buprenorphine alone is very uncommon...

In this situation, I wonder if they would consider using - dare I say it - ketamine?

If you have been taking suboxone, like I have, and then take an opiate orally you will not go into withdrawl. At the best it simply blocks the effects of the opiate. If, however you are taking a high dose of, lets say, oxycodone and you take sub ontop of that your chances of going into withdrawl are high.

Naloxone as stated above is an opiate antagonist and can be prescribed, after you finish your suboxone treatment, at high doses to totally block the effects of opiates. Suboxone only contains a very small amount of naloxone. Naloxone, however, will cause severe withdrawls at any level if an opiate is introduced to the system intravienously.

In my experience, unfortunately, while on suboxone you can take other opiates with it as long as you are not using the opiate intravienously.

Also, you can start taking sub sooner than 24hrs. It just depends on how long the active ingredients of the opiate you are using is. With hydro you can start as soon as 8hrs after your last dose.

Everybody reacts differently. This has been my experience, however.

Naltrexone is usually prescribed as maintenance. It can also be implanted. Taking an opioid whilst on buprenorphine will not cause withdrawAl; it is the other way round (if dependant).

Buprenorphine is made to be a sublingual tablet. Does it have the same effects, more effective, less effective, when swallowed?

it has no effect if swallowd

It will still have some effect if swallowed, though not nearly as much due to a very high first-pass effect.

Those buprenorphines that OS4u.com were really controversial with everyone claiming they're bad. I don't think anybody gave them a good review actually. Does anyone know if the generic ones that centralpharma@hushmail.com offers are the same ones or if they actually work? Or for that matter know an IOP or e-mail source with working bupe?

I was told that it is indeed very ineffective if swallowed, about 20% can be absorbed thru the stomach.

I am in the middle of a suboxone detox, if anyone has specific questions to my experience (I cant speak to how it affects everyone) you may PM me and I will try to help/share my story.

i was told by my sub detox doc that if you swallow it your stomac acids destroy the bup and it can not be absorbed
maybe there is a misunderstanding????

one week off hydro and i feel great, thanks to subuxone

It's like tvk said; a high percentage is 'lost' by whatever method.

I just started on sub today. It was around 10 hours from my last hydro. dose and I was started on 4mg. then another 4 mg. in 50 minutes...All went VERY well. Doc thought I'd need more but from all that I have read on the topic (less is more), I wanted to see if I could get by woith lowest dose. It's been about 6 hours from first dose and I feel pretty good. Unbelievable, actually. FYI-I was using between 300 and 450 mg. of hydro/day.

bkr,
It has been 11 days since I started on Suboxone. I feel great, better than ever (at least the last four years). I also was using between 250-400 mg of hydrocodone per day. I can't believe that you just do not crave it. I have not wanted a pill in almost two weeks, it is unbelievable. I am so thankful for this treatment. Great to hear you started, keep us up to date.
Brad
If anyone is reading this, and you are taking between 15 and 30, or even 40 Norcos a day, believe me, you can quit, without the painful withdrawls, Suboxone, send me a pm and I will gladly tell you more, there is hope.

same goes for me i have been on sub 10 days now and it is the best thing that ever happend to me, i was taking 450 mgs of hydro aday and i FEAL GREAT, what is your dose of subutex that you take in a day,mine is 24 mgs

i here alot of people complaning on this website about addits ruining it for the rest of us,and that they are using
this site for legit reasons, seems to me they need to go to there doctor for a legit script,and stop lying to themselves

Couldna said it better myself. There is alot of rationalization and high-handedness that goes on by some members here. We're looking for pills, right? Cheap pills, controlled substances sometimes (90%). "sure I take 5000mg of hydro a day cause of my bad back and order meds over the internet because I can't find a doctor that'll gimme what I want, BUT your post imples that you like the feelings these druge give you, you need help! and I'm in legitimate pain, like everytime I wake up and need to pop 30 pills to feel normal it sure hurts before the medicine takes hold."

Hey Brad, I can't pm--not enough posts yet.What you say makes sense, and you are one of the first who has said it in a way that makes sense to me. I do have a legit medical problem, but I can't do this anymore. My problems are 1) I am terrified. 2)no dr in my area except one who I know socially--and not sure what happens if you change your mind. I want to know everything. Thanks for posting your inspirational message.

Isabella35,
I know the choices seem bleek, the first step is the toughest. I tried to pm you as well, to give you as much info as I could, as someone who is doing this, and I also couldn't pm yet. Would like to help,
Brad

Morphia,
You nailed it. Wow, just what I was thinking.
I wish they all knew that it doesn't have to be so bad, there is a way out.
Brad

Brad, I tried your suggestion. Let me know if you didn't get it. Thanks!

Yesterday was day fifteen for me on Sub. I forgot what it was like to have energy, to have thoughts other than when will I be getting my next prescription. This drug, Suboxone, is a life saver. I had to come home from work at lunch, because I actually forgot to take my dose. I wasn't craving, I wasn't going through withdrawals, I just happened to realize I did not take my dose. When I was on hydrocodone, there was no chance in the world I would forget a dose, no chance, in fact, it was all i though about, taking more and more.
This message is not for those who need pain meds because of chronic pain. This message is for those who started on , say , vicodin, and it has snowballed on them. You may not even need pain pills physically at this time, but you just can't stop. There is hope, there is an answer, and for me it was suboxone.
Please, if you feel desperate, and you don't know what to do, you are out of money, you are running low on meds, find yourself a dispensing doctor, it will save your life.

Brad, Just curious, how much sub are you taking? I have been on sub for about 7 weeks, and like you, it has been a lifesaver for me.
I do want to tell you my sub story as it may help you some. I found myself taking the dose that was prescribed, even though I thought I could get by with less. One of the problems I had was, I was used to taking pilss at a certain time when I was taking hydro, and I jst switched that thinking over when I started sub. Now I take it 1/2 the dose prescribed, and it still works great. So, if you miss a does, and have no effects, don't sweat it. The 1/2 life of it will keep you going until you can take it. I find I can get by with 1/2 of an 8mg in the morning, and 1/2 in the evening. Anyway, I hope that helps you in adjusting your dosing.
To everyone else, I am glad you have made the first steps, and believe me, it only gets better from here.
Mel

With hydro, or any shoet acting opiate, you only have to wait couple hours, if at all, and you don't really have to be in withdraw, as long as you start an small (2-4mg) dose. Methodone is really the only drug that you need to quit for a significant time or risk precipitated withdrawal

So, there is no need to go through the agony.

How long do you have to take this stuff......wouldn't Hydro Detox be complete in a week or so???? Pardon the ignorance.

Even though Suboxone seems like a miracle drug, try to keep it short term. I'm talking a few weeks.
This drug does help get you off hydros but you have problems with it, if you continue long term.
My husband was taking it and he got really depressed.
He also had no sex drive at all. Even though he didn't take the hydros he still watched the clock, took more than he needed and basically kinda traded one for the other.
I'm not downing this drug, it's great if used short term.
Use it to get through the withdrawls then try to go off.
Some say it a lot harder to stop than hydros. Very depressed, can't sleep for months and other issues.
My husband has stopped after being on for almost 1 year, but he was like a different person when he started taking it. It's been 4mths and he still has trouble sleeping and gives me no attention or affection at all. I'm hoping in time that part will come around.
Just be careful how long you use it.
SG

I did the same thing when I first started taking the sub, basically substituting one pill for another, but I decided that I had to be accountable or I would never be better. I was so programmed to taking the hydro at a certain time evey day, that I did the same thing with the sub. I now follow the directions given to me by my doc, and I will be responsible and accountable for my own recovery.
Please dont make generalizations about how long to take sub, or how much to take. Everyone is different, and they have different reactions to meds. Being that general just makes people second guess the decision to get help. Everyone needs to find a doctor they trust, and follow their directions. You can certainly give your experience, but please make it clear that it is just your experience, and others may react differently.
Off my box now!!
No offense directed at all, I just think everyone needs to make sure they understand that their milage may vary with any treatment.
Have a blessed day yall.
Mel

As my Doctor said when I mentioned their was some negativity on certain message boards concerning suboxone, well, to quote him, "You have to remember, those people have a lot of problems, they are really messed up, and this is just a part of it."
My advice or the sharing of my expierence, was meant only for those who have a problem with hydrocodone, not for those who don't. Just trying to let people know that there is an option other than having to go to a methadone clinic everyday. First though, you have to want to get help, hopefully, thats not hitting rock bottom, like I did.
I have only good intentions, not trying to stoke a fire here, only offering an alternative for someone who may need an alternative.
By the way, if going to a methadone clininc everyday for maintenance is working for you, is helping you, please do not think i am judging you or your method, if it works, great.
To the chronic pain members on this board, I mean no offense for bringing up this subject. I do hope you realize that so many people use this site to find more and more sources for there hydro, this message is for them, not for you.
Their is a choice, suboxone, and it saves lives daily.
One week for the physical withdrawal effects may be accurate, but that is such an insignificant part of the problem someone is having if they are abusing hydrocodone.
I'll let this go now, I'll no longer use this message board for this message, I believe it may conflict with Admins stated goals of this site, and I will respect that.
Merry Christmas, and I for one will be having the best Christmas in years.

Sorry, been too busy living to get back here sooner- total daily dose for me is from 12-14mg...feel good

Brad, I'm so happy that you found help and got it in the form of suboxone. Over a year ago, when my brother was a heroin addict, he vowed to quit and go on methadone, but I knew there had to be a better way. I did my research, and since that first doctor visit he has been clean. (And I've kept quite the watchful eye) With the complications that arise from methadone use, I only hope that suboxone can replace it as a form of treatment entirely- many detox centers are now using suboxone instead; and while you have to have a special license to prescribe it where I live, they're moving towards passing a more leniant law. Like many other drugs you have to be careful when tapering off of the medication, but in my opinion the benefits of this drug far outweigh the consequences. After all, it gave me my brother back.

If I may chime in here....it is a good thing that your brother went to methadone, as I understand it, the transition from heroin should be...heroin, meth, sub. It has not been very successful detoxing from heroin with sub. Has something to do with the conversion chart and the halflife of all those drugs. Anyway, transferring to sub from methadone should be a fairly painless process. I have been on sub from hydro for about 9 weeks now, and it is a miracle drug for me. I have tapered from starting dose of 3 8mg tabs a day to now 1 1/2 tabs a day, and I have not had any w/d or adverse reactions at all so far. I might also add that my sub doc doen't agree that methadone should be used for anything other than pain management in very small doses, and for heroin detox. She doesn't think hydro addiction warrants methadone detox, and that is JHO of course, so I thought I would throw that in here.
Brad, I am so glad to see your posts, and to hear that you are doing so well. Please let me know if you ever need to chat with a fellow sub user!!
Have a great day ya'll.
Mel

I think there might have been a bit of confusion on my post. He was looking into a methadone treatment, but instead got help in the form of suboxone. First he was put on subutex, a very similar drug they use sometimes when you have initially come out of withdrawal, then a few days later switched over to suboxone with no problems. It's actually not necessary at all to detox from an opiate by using methadone first and then sub in that order, I would think the long half-life of methadone would make things more difficult for someone to switch over- especially if on a high dose, and even after tapering off meth completely, the side effects can last for months!...I'm sorry, but I have just never heard anyone mention or recommend the heroin/meth/suboxone route or any complications that would arise from forgoing it. I'm sure many people have done this with good results though, I'm not denying that.

And congratulations on getting clean, btw!

Sorry for the confusion, and I should have posted that the information came from my doc. She is an advocate for heroin detox by way of methadone, and does not see a positive response of detoxing from heroin with sub. It is her game plan to have her patients detox from heroin to methadone, then to sub if appropriate. This is all based on an article she wrote for the AMA, and she was telling me about it during one of my appointments.
Again, sorry for the confusion, and if your brother is doing good with his treatment, that is awesome! As always, everyone responds differently, so I was amiss by making a broad statement. I should have made it more clear as to what I meant.
Thanks for the congrats. It has not been a glory road, but I am better today than I was 4 months ago, and I get better every day.
Have a blessed day ya'll.
Mel