So in summary, regardless of price I paid, if I receive a product identified as Norco vs generic norco, the manufacturer is Watson, have I indeed received an identical product aside from the imprint? Sorry for my "denseness,"as I realize it is a simple question. However it seems to continue to "baffle" some. I am just wondering if anyone knows if they are indeed identical products aside from cosmetic and price differences. I guess to the degree one thinks any particular thing works it does not matter, but I am just curious if anyone knows the above to be fact? I completely understand the "placebo" effect, but I still always get generics. The only generics I have ever received were Watsons, which I benefitted from. One time I got Able's and for whatever the reason, I did not like them as well. Cannot completely dismiss some "invalid" reason for such, but I had no basis to think any worse of them than the Watsons, so think may be a "legit" response. i.e. I didn't think the Ables were "less attractive" than the Watsons, nor did I pay less, or any other mitigating factor here.....just curious on the above initial question only - do watson generic 10/325 = brand Norco 10/325. THanks!

The power of suggestion and belief greatly impacts ones feelings about meds. I take Watsons and only THEY feel equivalent to the brand. I don't, however, believe that paying the higher amount for the brand is necessary, if Watson is available. If we were talking about another generic, I might change my opinion. I should have mentioned Watson in my earlier post, oops! I really don't notice any difference in the two. To spend more on brand if Watson is available would definitely be a waste of money, and nobody likes that!

Thanks - I agree with you 100% but aside from the Watsons have only had the Able's once, and that was an unplanned shortage situation. I'd never asked for anything specific in my generic and had always gotten Watson and have been pleased.

Hi there. I'd posted this as a question in another board, but I'll just state it here. I have tried both Watsons and Ables, and in the past they seemed almost interchangeable. However, a somewhat recent fill of Ables seemed weak, almost useless to me. Perhaps the Ables are not as consistent in quality from batch to batch? Just a thought.

Unfortunately, in my situation, you are wrong. I posted this also as the only difference that is supposed to be between any of the 10/ hydros is the amount of non narcotic ingredients in them, right?

The study that was done very clearly shows several significant differences between the two meds. Also, I said nothing about the strength or effectiveness of the medicine as the basis of the lab study I had done, it was due to my anaphylaxic alergic response to this medicine and in that, it removes the possibilty of my reaction being due to any placebo effect.

As proven by this specific study, there are different gradients in several of the compounds used between the two medicines including the type (gradient)of opiate that is used in the medicines as well as in the binders and other ingredients. The findings of this study, performed by chemists and pharmacologists and their empirical findings are factual in the medicines (as stated, several of each where used) that were used in this study.

It is a simple fact that there are very significant differences between generic and brand medicines between the gradients and types of compounds used when manufacturing them.

The companies that manufacture these medicines purchase their ingredients from outside companies and agencies. They do not manufacture opiates and other binders in most cases. They do in some but typically, they purchase the compounds and then mix them to need for each specific medicine. They don't have a feild of opium poppies somewhere in the midwest that they harvest when they need it.

As is the case with most everything in nature, there are different qualities of similar things. There are many types of red roses that look and smell the same but have several differences in their actual make up. It is the same with the Opium poppy. They are still opium poppies when they are harvested, some have different qualities then others and thus break down into different gradients.

They are less expensive when they are broken down and sold because of these differences. They still have the same btu or ram or whatever method they use to determine the amount of potency in this dirivetive but, since they are different and of a lesser of varient of quality, they have a slightly different effect when they are used in a medical compound and in that, they are typically used when compounding "generic" medicines as a result. They are cheaper to manufacture and there by, they are able to sell them for less.

Now, they use similar formulas and that is a fact but, there absolutely differences, as proven by a blind study and chemecal analysis between the two different medicines in the actual manufacturers of the specific chemical compounds used and the gradients of them.

I sent my printout to the manufacturer of the medicines used in my study and was suprised to recieve a phone call (as I requested) from them in the hopes to answer my questions and concerns regarding this study and my reactions to the meds.

During our conversation, the results of the study were not only confirmed but I was told by the employee I spoke with, who's job was directly related to the actual compounding of these very meds, that they make no claim that the two are the exact same medicine.

He said that one of the reasons that they use a different name then brand (not the only, but one of them) is due to that fact.

He told me that of course they use different gradeints (he used the word "qualities)of certain meds but that they should work in a similar "if not exactly the same" manner to the brand name meds.

He said that in my case, likely I was allergic to one of several of the non active binders (as it turned out) which are also of a lesser gradient. He said that the meds shouldn't be detectable to the average patient but that with some, there could have been conciderable differences.

He also said that generics are allowed by some pharmacy's to stay on their shelves longer due to the fact that they order more of them and in larger quantities. He proposed that most of the pharmacy's recieve weekly shipments of their various meds but in the case of the most frequently prescribed meds, they will simply order more and hope that they run through them before they go "stale" and that as the manufacturer, they are not responsible for what happens to the meds once they are shipped. (within the boundries of he law).

He told me that the likelyhood of them going off while sitting on a pharmacists shelves is unlikely, but, it is possible.

The brand meds gradient of compounding agents tends to have about 1/3 (he said on average) less of a shelf life then the brand name meds gradients do but, there has been no study other than manufacturing requirements (FDA) outline studies to determine this that have been published yet. (this was a little while ago so I am not certain but a search of the JAMA website might turn up an article or two on the matter).

So, it is NOT a placebo effect that we are talking about here. We are talking about generics being a similar medicince (very similar) but similar isn't the same as exactly the equivilent of brand.

I have made this offer (and was taken up on it when I first posted the results of my study) and will make it again because I feel the information to be important and that we are getting told an untruth (of a sort) by our pharmacists that could have serious ramifications when we are told the myth that they are "exactly" the same meds.

Send me a pm letting me know who you are and I will send you along my address. If you send me an envelope with the postage paid return envelope inside, I will make a copy of the study and send it back to you. Like I said, there were two different members here who did this and we actually talked on the phone about the results and one of them used the information to show her PM doctor that there were differences and he, after studying the report, switched her and all of his patients over to brand meds. Not what I was thinking or hoping would happen as I find that generics work just fine for allot of people but, it shows the validity of the study that a PM doctor would change his practice based on it.



In my case,
One pill in a blind study made my throat close and had I not been under imediate medical supervision (couple of shots of something) would have possibly (eventually) have died from its effects and the other resolved my pain issue.

I had no idea at the time which was which.

Like I said, in my case, it was a one in a million or more allergy in a specific binder that was used. A binder that is absolutely one of the similar but different compounds that is used between brand and generic meds.

These are facts that are supported by empirical evidence.

I guess it all boils down to if we have one particular brand, be it brand or generic, that we think for whatever reason, works "bettter" for us, it may indeed be legit, and even if not (as some seem to contend), we may as well strive to get that brand?

I don't know amaz. I see what you are saying but, there are specific differences between generics and brand name meds and, I would say it this way, if you are one of the lucky people (that there are many of) who are receiving the relief that you require from your generic meds then by all means stick with them. They are less expensive and, all that matters is that they offer you the relief you are looking for in the end.

If you are like me, one of the people who for whatever reason are allergic or have negative reactions to most generic meds then you A) now know that there are specific and irrefutable reasons why they aren't working as desired and B) that you can switch to brand and should be able to aleviate your problems or sensitivities all together and recieve the relief you are looking for.

I would also point out that for those who are sensitive but still capable of taking generic meds (maybe they don't work all too well for you or they only throw off a symptom that you are capable of tolerating) that it might be worth your spending the extra money on brand as they may actually last you longer in the fact that they can provide you with additional relief that you may not be capable of getting from your generic meds.

That is how I would put it.

how can i get norco 10/325 meds?

- That is a strange question to put in this thread ...

Ugg. This was last asked and dealt with how many weeks ago?



I have provided an opportunity for anyone who wants empirical proof that that there are chemecial and gradient differences and have shared the actual reports now with 9 of the members here. These studies where blind and done by pharmacologists and chemists. They are above reproach.

They are a statement of the actual facts of what differences where found in the MANY pills that were tested. I had an anaphylaxic response to one kind of "generic" and didn't to another and that is why I paid to have the study done.

I spoke with the manufacturer (one of their chemist) who responded to my letter in which I provided the findings of the study and HE said that there were differences in the gradeints of the medications used.

You are wrong, there are differences. They have been reported and are, as are all issues where emperical evidence is the core of the evidentiary support of any debtate, above reproach.

It is a fact that there are differences between several of the generic medications as well as their brand name counterparts. It is also a fact that they should perform as well as the brand name of the meds they were made to replace for *most* people.

It is a fact that it doesn't work that way for some of us.

It is NOT a placebo effect. It is a fact of the chemical make up of each of these medicines and the gradients of the ingredients used in them.

I have offered up the study that was done and as I said, 9 members here have taken me up on my offer of sending them a copy of it. In that mailing I also included the name and phone numbers of the chemist and pharmacologysts at the manufacturers and the labs that I have worked and spoken with.

I would send it to you if you like. PM me and I will show you how it is done.

The reason for NOT posting it here is that it is 241 pages of scientific evidence and findings and there is simply no possible way to post that much information here.

I also would add that if you want the report that all you have to do is pay for the price to have it sent to you.

I don't ask for handling charges. I am not telling you who or how you should ship it. Simply send me the means to send it back to you at no cost to me and I will pay to have it copied and sent to you as well as the time it takes me to do so.

Pretty fair if you ask me. The study cost me a nice little bit of money but I am happy to give it to anyone who wants it for free. They can take it to their doctors, pharmacies or put it under their pillows but they will have the actual proof and support to show when they are told that their symptoms cannot be because of the generic medicines that they are talking. I am happy to provide that for free.


Also, I did try talking the manufacturers of these medicines without this report and was told that all medicines should work the same for each patient regardless of their being brand or generic.

Once I sent them the study and mentioned that I was going to look into legal action for my suffering after the anaphylaxic incedent and that the study would be my evidence, but, that I would much rather just speak to someone in the know there in person (since the town of Norco is less than an hour away from my house) and avoid any legal action they gave me a call and we talked about it on the phone.

I did nothing with the report. I simply wanted to know why, when I took one pill that was supposed to be the exact same pill but cheaper then its brand named counterpart that it made my throat close shut to the point of intibation when the brand name didn't cause that effect.

After a lengthy conversation I was told what I had posted and that is that there are differences and the ingredients and that it is typically in the gradients (quality would be a word that I would use but that doesn't imply strength) and in some of the actual chemical binders. That is what causes my severe reaction to certain, not all, but certain generic medications.

I now have a list of binders and specific ingredients that I am allergic to and am able to better identify what I can and can't take.

What I think is happening is that MOST people notice nothing different between generic and brand meds so they will go to great lengths to tell those of us who are sensitive to the factual differences between the two that it must be us. It must be a placebo effect or some other nonsense.

They remind me of the people who tell you that back pain is in your head or that Kidney stones only hurt when they are passing.

Each of us are different.

Each of us have different reactions to different things.

Simply because, for example in my case, that I go into shock and can't breathe when I am given certain chemicals DOESN'T mean it is in my head and in fact, it is impossible to have that type of a reaction unless you are actually allergic to something.


If any of the 9 people who have received this and have followed up on the findings want to respond then I would encourage them to do so.

This issue is one where some people will constantly refuse to accept the facts that even the manufacturers of the meds say is true, and that is that there are differences between brand and generic medicines.

It is a fact. Not an opinion.

Some of you seem to be experts on norco,so i have a question.Ijust got my pills from friday consult .Doc gave me 10/325 norco.They came of course generic watson 853 yellow pills.Are these in fact generic norcos.They seem awful weak compared to the blue watson 540 10/500s i got last time.Would someone please verify that these 853 watsons are hydro. By the way when watson came out with norco it was primarily sold in canada long before the u.s.

They are hydro. Some people just like Lortab 10/500 better, whatever the reason.

-yawkaw

Thanks yawkaw for that input ,you seem to know your way around.If ever i can be of help to you scream loudly as i am blind in one eye

Yes I also got a order from rxhotdeals of generic norco's, that were no good. No matter how many I took no pain releif, just a slight headache, I called them and they said sent them back and they would make good on them, that was 2 weeks ago, Obviouly I'm out the 170 bucks with no medicine as of yet. They had to be really really old or something.

What is the deal with these pills.I've taken Ultram stonger than these 10/325s.Usually take four a day,took 3 already still hurtin as if i'd been suplexed by Benoit 50 times.Anyone else get them this weak?

Royj, did you say where your meds came from? Maybe I missed it?

I say Norco is identical to Watson generic 10/325 except for their prices and imprint codes. Nobody has posted any evidence to the contrary. All we have are statements that don't say what was compared to what, and don't say what the differences were, except for the presence of a different binder in the generic. What was that binder? I doubt anyone wants to read 241 pages. Please summarize the results if it's an apples-to-apples comparison ... meaning that both came from Watson.

Someone here even went so far as to post a color scan of their DEA license. I don't see why a scan of the invoice or summary page from that laboratory saying what was analyzed can't be posted along with your (or any of the nine people's) description of the significant differences. That would be proof of the claim, if the invoice said Norco and Watson 853 tabs were both analyzed for composition. It would probably take less time to scan that one page and summarize the differences than it would take to copy and mail out another 241 pages. Nine people got it? That's 2169 pages mailed already, and no evidence posted to date. Maybe one of those nine people can state what was compared to what and summarize the differences.

Watson would be understandably averse to saying that people who buy Norco are simply wasting their money. They are required to tell the FDA what's in the two yellow oblong pills which are exactly the same color, size, shape, and weight; but the FDA treats it as confidential proprietary information. When Watson's generic was approved, they had to give a lot of information proving its bioequivalence to Norco. But if the two pills are the same, they are saved all that trouble; all they have to say is that the pills are the same; end of story. If the pills are identical, they don't have to spend all that money to do a clinical study showing that the two imprint codes give roughly the same blood levels of the active drugs in roughly the same amount of time. How much money could they possibly save by using different binders, since it could only cause problems and when the difference in their cost of goods is driven primarily by the cost of regulatory compliance? Using different formulas would cost them more and be more risky and complicated than if they used the exact same formula for both pills.

I can see the headline now: someone died of anaphylactic shock because Watson uses a cheap binder that people are allergic to in the generic, but they don't use it in their name brand. Sounds like a good class-action lawsuit that could easily cost them hundreds of millions and cause immeasurable damage to their reputation. If one person here is allergic to the generic's cheap binder, odds are that he's not the only one. It just doesn't make any sense.

If nine people got those 241 pages in the mail why haven't any of them posted here? Anyway, it's hard to believe that a simple comparison of two pills requires half a ream of paper.

Trampy

chris,they came from unipharm

I see, so if You don't see it, it doesn't exist. I have posted specific findings and it isn't up to me what the posters who received the findings do with them. I am not one of those members who take what is said in a pm and post it on the main pages.

The reason that you cannot simply post a single page is we are talking about four different brands and types of pills used.

I also would say this, do your own research. Believe what you want. I can provide you a Perfect solution to your problem, it costs YOU the price of shipping. Other than that, I don't really care about what you think or feel on the subject.

That isn't what is important. What is important is that I was told the same thing that you are saying by many different people and yet, two different times in two different blind studies I had the same reaction to the same generic medications.

I paid out of my own pocket for an unbiased, scientific study of each of these medicines to be done to find out why. I also had a study done to find out why I have the same reaction to cyproflaxin and other meds as well during the same study, though, those findings don't apply to this conversation. The study did show, again, differences between brand and generic in those non pain related medications as well as they did with the medicine we are talking about.

I didn't give the lab any restrictions. I simply asked them to identify each ingredient and compare them with the brand name of each medicine studied.

Their findings were that there Are actualy differents.

I sent letters to each of the manufacturers with copies of the report and asked if they would speak with me on subject.

Two different manufacturers did. They both told me about gradients, not the lab. (at least, from the 241 pages of scientific findings I didn't see anything that said "these are gradient differences" and not being a pharmacologist or chemist, I wouldn't know it if I did. What I do know is that they in each instance that there is the slightest deviation from brand to generic they made a notation by asterisk stating what each difference is. If they hadn't, I would have had a very hard time knowing anything in the study)

So, like I said, if you want the truth, I will ship it to you and you can do whatever you want with it. If you want to spend your time not believing the truth because you have the opinion that it doesn't exist, I can't help you there.

In the end, this was done for my own personal health. I am happy, as I said, to provide these findings with anyone who wants them in the hopes that it helps them in case they experience the same problems I did.

Other than that, I don't actually care what anyone thinks or feels about the subject. I have 241 pages of proof as well has having spent a couple of hours on the phone with the actual manufacturers of these medicines who have given me the truth, not opinion.

I will always value the truth over anyone elses opinion. The truth is fact, opinion is feeling.

When you are trying to breathe and swollen with welps after taking a medicine that you have been told is the same but cheaper than the exact same medicine that didn't cause this reaction, you go and rely on your opinions. Tell yourself that it isn't happening.

That is, unless you want to know what a lab full of chemists and pharmacologists had to say about the subject, unless you would rather have the facts, the truth so that you can make certain it doesn't happen to you again.

If you want that information, I will mail it to you. Simply pay the shipping. I won't send pieces of it. I have seen way to many times especially here were someone will take one little snip of something and try to prop it up as the truth.

This is a scientific study, it isn't something you can simply take one page of and say "I told you so". It shows several differences and variables between several different chemical reactions to each of these medicines, on their own, they are confusing, as a whole, they are conclusive and factual evidence of the truth.

That truth is that there are differences between brand and generic pills in at least four different types of medicine.

It is a fact, not an opinion.

If you're used to taking the blue Watson 10/500's, you may need the extra Tylenol, so you might try taking an extra plain regular tylenol (325 mg). The extra Tylenol -- you don't want too much -- does help some people. The meds from Unipharm from everything I've read, have been fine, no reports of poor quality.

I agree about taking a tylenol w ith the norco it works .I have tryed just taking norco and generic both are the same but! the extra tylenol is what really helps. Also sometimes when i get bad headaches I suffer migranes and also in a wheelchair for a broken left foot and also my right ankle. So trust me lortabs are good but if you use norco and it is not working take a tylenol too. Sometimes I use tylenol sinus also and that helps with headaches. Everybody remember that hydrocodone is also used in cough syrup for r bad coughs,it is used for many different medical reasons. Hope this helps.Taking to much hydro either will upset your stomach or give you headaches.Yourbrain will only accept so much and then rejects it.That's why tolerence goes up. Also if you take it on an empty stomach with couple saltnes it works and lots of water.It works in your gi tract so if your stomach is full it gets too mixed up with all the food.No better way to explain.P.M with any other questions I can answer .I will sugeest a few diffeent ways to make the hydro more effective.

Everything you say is absolutely true. O have been taking Norco for about 4 years and usually got my refills from Savon. Unfortunately I needed them more often then Savon would fill so I started getting them from other sources. Recently I have taken Norco (Watson 853 yellow oblongs) manufactured by Danbury NO GOOD. I usually take like 4-5 and get full pain relief and the great peaceful feeling not with these. Same story with Malincroft. They just make my frustrated and edgy and eventually after taking god knows how many a headache! From now on NORCO made by WATSON only. That is the only way to know for sure. Now im stuck with 250 bunk NORCS! Anyone interested! haha PS. I got an order from Woody's and had the same problem. Just a heads up for my fellow friends.

I don't understand. Is there a yellow Watson 853 manufactured by Watson, and an identical-looking one manufactured by Danbury ? I thought these generic Watsons were Watson generic brand, and also identical to the Norco 10/325 also manufactured by Watson? Please clarify. Thanks.

ive been taking watson 853s the hydro 10/325 for a while now but today i received some pills that say M367 on them...are they still hydro?...did i get stuck with bad tablets?

Mallinckrodt M367 = Hydrocodone 10/325

.. another generic of Norco.

Often refered to as "Mallies"

hey, thanks for that timely response... ...are they the same potency as the watson 853 or worse or better?...any thoughts on that?

Of course the 10/325 would indicate that they are exactly the same.

I had them once and couldn't tell the difference from the Watsons or Qualitest. I seems that most people prefer the Watsons and some people have complained about the Mallies - give them a go (I assume you already have), and let us know what you think

thanks again for the quick answer...so far, they aren't that bad...i was wondering, when taking these pills, is it better to work up to a level that gets you out of pain, like starting off with 2 and then taking more, or should you go right to the level where you know they work?...the direction labels often say take 2 a day and that hardly works...what works for you?